MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
A witness in one of former President Trump's impeachment trials says he is supporting him this fall. Gordon Sondland is a Republican donor and Trump's former ambassador to the European Union. He was drawn into Trump's effort to get the Ukrainian president to help Trump dig up dirt on Trump's political opponents. He spoke with our co-host, Steve Inskeep.
STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Ambassador Sondland gave this affirmation under oath in 2019.
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GORDON SONDLAND: Was there a quid pro quo? The answer is yes.
INSKEEP: Five years later, Sondland has reevaluated.
SONDLAND: I realized that that particular impeachment was much ado about nothing.
INSKEEP: He still says there was a quid pro quo but that it wasn't such a big deal. When Trump tried to overturn his election defeat, Ambassador Sondland said he was done with the former president. He says he changed because the Biden administration is that bad on issues like immigration and much more. Our conversation was a chance to hear Sondland make the case for Trump, even though he acknowledges the attack on the Capitol in 2021.
SONDLAND: What changed my mind about January 6, as much as I thought it was not anyone's finest hour, was four years of Biden-Harris governance, which has literally begun to destroy many cities in the United States. And the list goes on and on and on.
INSKEEP: I want to ask about those impressions you have of the Biden-Harris administration. But first, I want to dwell on former President Trump. Given what you felt about January 6, what is the affirmative case for giving Trump once again the awesome powers of the presidency?
SONDLAND: I've had the benefit of having worked with him one-on-one for about 2 1/2, almost three years, and then watching what I refer to as the Trump show, which is the hyperbole, the rallies, all the histrionics that everyone criticizes. And I look at how he performed one-on-one and how he governed, how he made decisions, what was actually happening to the country while he was president. The country was in good shape. Our allies - while they may not have loved us because we spoke truth to power, they respected us. And a lot of that has evaporated, Steve.
INSKEEP: I just want to note because you talked about working with him one-on-one. I don't doubt that you did, but I'm thinking about his own public statements. Before the impeachment trial, he did refer to you as a great American. After it became clear that you were testifying against him, in a sense, he said, I don't know this guy very well.
SONDLAND: (Laughter) That's Trump (laughter). He was the one who told me - when I said the committee wants me to testify, he said, go ahead. Just tell the truth, which I did.
INSKEEP: In more recent times, he has made a lot of statements that have troubled people. He said he is justified in terminating the Constitution. He said he won't be a dictator except on Day 1. Do you believe that he wants to be a dictator and terminate the Constitution?
SONDLAND: Absolutely not - that's not what he's actually saying. He engages in this hyperbole, and I'm not going to explain or defend every one of his utterances. What I can tell you when he says things like, for example, I'm going to solve the Ukraine-Russia problem in 24 hours - of course he's not going to resolve it in 24 hours. But what he's saying, really, is this is going to get resolved quickly. I'm going to essentially beat the [expletive] out of both sides to come to an understanding and make that war go away. That's what he's really saying.
INSKEEP: Two questions about that - first, are you sure you know when he's making it up and when he's being truthful?
SONDLAND: I don't believe he's lying. I believe he loves hyperbole. He's a New York real estate developer. That's in the DNA.
INSKEEP: People thought it was hyperbole about him trying to overturn the 2020 election, and it turned out he really meant it all the way through - tried until almost the last day and still keeps repeating that he wants to overturn the election.
SONDLAND: I told you earlier I'm not defending that. I don't think it was his finest hour.
INSKEEP: As regards to that matter of Ukraine, an area where you have some expertise, can you imagine any way to quickly get, as you say, both sides to agree to a peace deal that would not be effectively a victory for Russia and a defeat for Ukraine?
SONDLAND: Well, I don't want to see - just so you understand my own personal perspective, I don't want to see Russia rewarded by 1 square mile of Ukrainian territory, and I want to see Ukraine win. But I think what really would scare Russia to death is Trump becoming president and basically telling Zelenskyy, listen, all the gloves are off. You can use the weapons as they're intended. We're not going to tell you who to shoot at or when to shoot. I think Putin knows that he's screwed, short of a nuclear exchange, if that were to happen.
INSKEEP: I want to come back to some of your feelings about the Biden-Harris administration. You mentioned federal policies, administration policies, that have destroyed cities. I travel to a lot of American cities. They have their problems. They go up and down. There are crime issues. But the cities are not destroyed in this country - not one city.
SONDLAND: Well, I can tell you one that is - Portland, Oregon (laughter), where I'm from.
INSKEEP: Destroyed?
SONDLAND: Destroyed.
INSKEEP: I mean, there've been protests...
SONDLAND: When I say destroyed, I mean economically destroyed. I don't mean physically destroyed. The buildings are standing. The streets are relatively clean. But they've become cadavers of their former selves, Steve, economically. And it's because of the lack of willpower by very left-leaning administrations to enforce the law, to allow businesses to do their business without shoplifting and basically to do what cities have been doing for decades.
INSKEEP: I'm just - I - while you're talking, I did a Google search here for the unemployment rate currently in Portland, Oregon, and it's 4%.
SONDLAND: The employment rate is high, but the city is dying. Just walk the streets, and you'll see. And you can walk the streets of many cities that are dying because of hybrid work, because of encouraging people not to come back to the office. And that starts with county and municipal government.
INSKEEP: Oh, I've seen that in downtowns. Is that the responsibility of the Biden administration?
SONDLAND: No, it's not the responsibility of the Biden administration per se, Steve. It's a entire progressive movement, and the Biden administration exemplifies that.
INSKEEP: One final thing to ask about - given what you know about the January 6 attack on the Capitol, if Trump were elected again, what reason would you have for thinking that he would ever give up power at the end of his term?
SONDLAND: I would assume that he would. I would assume that he would.
INSKEEP: Ambassador Sondland, thanks so much. I appreciate your time.
SONDLAND: Thank you, Steve - enjoyed it.
MARTIN: Gordon Sondland, Trump's former ambassador to the European Union, speaking with our co-host, Steve Inskeep.
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