LEILA FADEL, HOST:
Now we'll turn to the international challenges Carter faced during his time in office, issues still confronting the U.S. today - a hostile Iran, a peace that's more elusive than ever between Israelis and Palestinians, deteriorating relations with Russia and a rising China. For more on the late president's foreign policy and views on global affairs after his presidency, I'm joined by Richard Haass. He's president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations and worked in the Pentagon during the Carter administration. Good morning, Richard, and thank you for being on the program.
RICHARD HAASS: Good morning.
FADEL: You know, it was foreign policy that many point to as Carter's undoing as president. Americans were taken hostage at the U.S. embassy in Iran for 444 days, and that was seen as the reason he lost his reelection bid. But when you look back at the legacy of his foreign policy as president, what defines it for you?
HAASS: Well, first off, I think you're right. If he had maybe sent one more helicopter and the hostages had come back, he might have been reelected. But the larger theme of his foreign policy I actually think was quite interesting and quite successful. He was a man of peace, but he wasn't a pacifist. He was both a realist and an idealist, so he could advocate for human rights. He could bring, you know, the Israelis and the Egyptians together. But he also signed an arms control agreement with the Soviet Union. He normalized established diplomatic relations with China. And he signed the Panama Canal Treaty simply because he realized that was the best and only way to keep the canal open, despite the pressure from the American right not to do it. So, to me, he was able to live with contradictions, and maybe that's one of the things the job takes.
FADEL: You mentioned a few landmark moments during his presidency - the peace deal he negotiated between Israel and Egypt in 1979, the paving the way for the Panama to take control of the Panama Canal. He also normalized established diplomatic ties with China. He had an openness to the world. But when he signed the Panama Canal treaties, he was widely criticized domestically. And he talked about how he saw U.S. relations with other countries based on, quote, "fairness, not force." Since then, the U.S. has prosecuted two controversial wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And right now, the incoming president is threatening to retake control of the Panama Canal. So is Carter's principle of fairness, not force something of the past?
HAASS: I'm not sure I would have ever articulated it that way. I think he would have done better if he had said, look, our goal is to keep the canal open and functioning, and this is the best way to do it. The idea of fairness I don't think necessarily plays as a - in the sense of patriotism. This is a rough world at times, and other countries aren't playing fair. But again, the larger point is American foreign policy since the get-go has had a tension in it between idealism and realism, between principles, but also politics. And it affected Jimmy Carter, just like it will affect Donald Trump going forward.
FADEL: A lot of his legacy - people talk about the time after his presidency, all of the time that he spent on peacemaking, on humanitarian issues, on promoting human rights. But you've written that he's been underestimated and his legacy, especially on foreign policy, wasn't heralded enough. Why?
HAASS: Well, in part because he was just what you say. He was so extraordinary as an ex-president. And I think, you know, people focus on that for good reason. But then it's - they're a bit critical or harsh in saying, but he wasn't that good as a president. And again, I'm not going to defend everything he did. You know, inflation was out of control during his presidency. You know, some bad things happened on his watch. He allowed himself to become hostage, if you will, to the hostage crisis in Iran. But overall, it's a pretty good record - solid relations with - you know, with the Soviet Union and with China, the breakthrough peace in the Middle East. That's still the foundation. To the extent there's any order in that part of the world, the Egyptian-Israeli agreement not only set a precedent, but it's still there, half a century later. He also increased the defense budget towards the end, and built the foundations and the basics of what became our ability to project military force in the greater Middle East. This is a pretty impressive set of accomplishments.
FADEL: I will point out, in his later years, he became quite critical of the peace process between the Israelis and Palestinians and Israel's treatment of Palestinians. But when you look at the world today, are there lessons that the United States can take from Carter's legacy on foreign policy with the geopolitical challenges we face today?
HAASS: The biggest lesson is the need for diplomacy as a tool. At the same time, we've also got to be strong - that it can't be one or the other, that you've got to somehow have both in your kit bag when you approach when you approach the - when you approach this world. I think that sums it up.
FADEL: Richard Haass, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations. Thank you.
HAASS: Thank you.
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