AILSA CHANG, HOST:
The actor Poorna Jagannathan has played roles that subvert some of the most tired South Asian stereotypes we usually see on screen - like the mom she portrayed in the comedy TV series, "Never Have I Ever."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "NEVER HAVE I EVER")
POORNA JAGANNATHAN: (As Nalini Vishwakumar) Even though I won't let you date, I do care if you're heartbroken.
MAITREYI RAMAKRISHNAN: (As Devi Vishwakumar) Yeah. It's about a boy. And I really, really liked him.
JAGANNATHAN: (As Nalini Vishwakumar) Come here.
CHANG: She's also played the South Asian doctor, but one with a side hustle, doing favors for shady characters played by Brad Pitt and George Clooney in the movie "Wolfs."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WOLFS")
JAGANNATHAN: (As June) Do you know what he took?
GEORGE CLOONEY: (As Margaret's Man) No.
BRAD PITT: (As Pam's Man) Not sure.
JAGANNATHAN: (As June) Well, it must have been some bad combination or something extremely pure.
CHANG: And now, in the new Hulu series "Deli Boys" by creator Abdullah Saeed, Jagannathan's latest role may be her most trope-bending yet. The show centers on two spoiled Pakistani American brothers who've inherited an empire of convenience stores, only to discover that the business their dad left behind is actually a front for a drug-dealing ring. Jagannathan plays a crime boss named Lucky, a maternal figure with a murderous streak.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "DELI BOYS")
JAGANNATHAN: (As Lucky) Oh, I know what you're thinking. Huh? Has Lucky actually gone crazy? I just didn't expect both of you to show up here. Come on. But I guess this is the kismet Allah chose for us. Go eee (ph).
ASIF ALI: (As Mir Dar) Eee.
JAGANNATHAN: (As Lucky) Very nice. Good boy.
CHANG: When I spoke with her this week, I asked her what drew her to this role of half Pakistani auntie, half gangster?
JAGANNATHAN: I have a teenage son. Do you have kids, Ailsa?
CHANG: I don't have kids, but I can imagine...
JAGANNATHAN: Yes.
CHANG: ...What it might be like to have a teenage son and wanting to be a gangster as the mom.
JAGANNATHAN: You have to be a gangster.
CHANG: (Laughter).
JAGANNATHAN: You have to out-gangster them, actually.
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: That's your only job. I'm only partly kidding, by the way.
CHANG: (Laughter).
JAGANNATHAN: It is...
CHANG: But you have to be maternal, but you also have to be a little bit brutal at times. What are you getting at?
JAGANNATHAN: Oh, yes, a bit of a spy, you know, so many combinations. When I read the script, it's based on opposites, right? The two brothers are, well, they're just opposite to each other.
CHANG: Yeah, yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: And Lucky's - how she expresses, be it love or anger, are opposite. So she's super - can be super maternal and, you know, just super sweet, super sweet. And then, you know, when she's angry or when she takes care of business, she'll just put a bullet through someone's head the next second.
CHANG: (Laughter) I mean, also - what? - you're in your 50s now.
JAGANNATHAN: Yes.
CHANG: You've had many, many years of acting experience. What is it like to graduate in your 50s to playing a gangster? Like, what feels so right about that at this stage in your career - to play a criminal?
JAGANNATHAN: I've been getting a lot of power roles for the last maybe decade, and I've always hated them. Like, just hated them.
CHANG: What do you see as a power role?
JAGANNATHAN: You know, the woman, like, saying, no, this thing is not right. What are you doing? Or firing someone or just, like, you know, in control...
CHANG: The boss, yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...Of a room, the boss. Like, I had to put Mark Wahlberg in his place. It was all really hard. Like, it was hard. The second I turned 50, it just came so easily.
CHANG: Oh, I love that.
JAGANNATHAN: Like, now when I enter any room, when I go through and move through the world...
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...It's a feeling of being rightfully there, and that's fine.
CHANG: What I also love about the show, beyond your character, is the show, it seems intent on breaking down cliches about South Asian immigrants, about the model minority myth. Like...
JAGANNATHAN: Right.
CHANG: ...I love how the whole front for this crime family is a convenience store. And, you know, South Asians owning convenience stores in the U.S. is kind of a stereotype, right? And I love how that stereotype is the whole cover for criminal activity in the show. Like, it subverts the model...
JAGANNATHAN: Totally.
CHANG: ...Minority myth.
JAGANNATHAN: Totally. And it's like, you know, America grew up on a diet of an Indian character owning a convenience store, which is Apu in "The Simpsons."
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: But that character...
CHANG: A very offensive character.
JAGANNATHAN: Well, it wasn't written by us or for us and...
CHANG: Or performed.
JAGANNATHAN: Exactly.
CHANG: I mean, it's performed by a white person.
JAGANNATHAN: Right, exactly. And so that was, you know, we never stopped to get Apu's real story. We never went beyond the stereotype. We - and so with "Deli Boys" we're really seeing a move from Apu, who was to be the punchline, to "Deli Boys," which is the plotline.
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: So it really takes that old trope and very much...
CHANG: Totally.
JAGANNATHAN: ...Subverts it, yeah.
CHANG: Like, oh, you think this is what we are? All right, go ahead and think that...
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.
CHANG: ...We're going to do other stuff in the background...
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah, it's a front...
CHANG: ...Underground. Yeah, yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...A true front. Yeah, yeah. But I also say, like, you know, South Asians have been always portrayed as the cab driver and the deli and, you know, terrorists.
CHANG: Totally.
JAGANNATHAN: And the "Deli Boys" now gives people the opportunity to portray us as drug dealers as well. Yes, thank you very much.
CHANG: Yay, congratulations.
JAGANNATHAN: Thank you.
CHANG: (Laughter) Well, I mean, that's another thing - the show, it is so funny. Yes, it has cultural references, but the show didn't necessarily have to be about a Pakistani family.
JAGANNATHAN: That's right.
CHANG: Like, Pakistani identity isn't the central driver of the plot.
JAGANNATHAN: Yes. And although it's a very strong undercurrent - the way we eat, the way we pray, where we pray, how we feed each other, what's - what we're doing in this - you know, all that it's very South Asian, Pakistani.
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: The way we speak, like when we're really angry we'll curse in Urdu.
CHANG: (Laughter).
JAGANNATHAN: But yes, so the undercurrent is definitely us, but - specific, but the themes are just ridiculously universal.
CHANG: Exactly.
JAGANNATHAN: And the laughter is universal.
CHANG: Exactly. I also adored how the woman is the one with the clarity and decisiveness and, frankly...
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.
CHANG: ...The balls...
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.
CHANG: ...To be the leader here.
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah, yeah.
CHANG: Like, pretty much every single man on the show is hapless.
JAGANNATHAN: Incompetent.
CHANG: Yes.
JAGANNATHAN: Just incompetent.
CHANG: Not you. How good did that feel?
JAGANNATHAN: I mean, I think Lucky is very much - Lucky is based on Abdullah's mom, Seema, who is a single mom, raised, you know, two boys. And she's an incredible woman. But Lucky is also based on our showrunner, Michelle, our producer, Jenni, who are - Jenni Konner, who are all in the writers' room. Like, they are all Lucky aunties through and through. And, you know, they've been in...
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...Rooms where they've always been underestimated. They've always had to take - you know, be in charge. They've always had to clean up men's messes. Like, that's who they are. And so, therefore, that is very much the essence of Lucky. She's a clean-up man.
CHANG: Well, all right, now that "Deli Boys" is out there, like, where do you go next after gangster auntie? Like (laughter), what's the next barrier-breaking role for you, if you could dream one up?
JAGANNATHAN: Oh, I think I might be in my gangster phase for a long time.
CHANG: (Laughter).
JAGANNATHAN: I can't envision getting out of it, actually. It just feels so right for this time in my life. I'm on to Green...
CHANG: You make the 50s sound amazing. If I could be in a gangster phase in a couple of years, I'd be set.
JAGANNATHAN: Yes, it...
CHANG: I would be thrilled.
JAGANNATHAN: The thing that it's so hard to explain is that it just comes to you. You don't...
CHANG: Yeah.
JAGANNATHAN: ...Go to it anymore. Like, my favorite - the word I used to be so afraid of is saying no, and it is my favorite word now.
CHANG: Isn't it a beautiful word?
JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.
CHANG: I cannot wait for my gangster era. Poorna Jagannathan stars in the new Hulu show "Deli Boys." Thank you for this conversation. This was so much fun, Poorna.
JAGANNATHAN: I am so, so grateful to be on here with you, Ailsa.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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