ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
A moment from four years ago might feel familiar to any woman in a position of authority.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
SUSAN PAGE: Kamala Harris - Senator Harris, I mean - I'm sorry.
KAMALA HARRIS: That's fine. I'm Kamala.
PAGE: No, no, no...
HARRIS: (Laughter).
PAGE: ...You're Senator Harris to me.
SHAPIRO: That was the vice presidential debate in 2020, where moderator Susan Page slipped and called Senator Harris by her first name. Research shows that this happens to women in positions of power all the time, whether they are authors, professors or even vice president of the United States. So if you've noticed people referring to Trump, Biden and Kamala, it's not your imagination.
Mirya Holman studies gender in American politics at the Hobby School of Public Affairs at the University of Houston, and I asked her whether this first-name gender gap is simply evidence of a bias against women.
MIRYA HOLMAN: One of the pieces that I think is going on here is that women are not seen as the norm in politics. They're unusual. And so people think about who they are in a different way. I do actually think it is a sign of disrespect in an environment where you have multiple candidates, and you're referring to one by her first name and then all of the men by their last name. You are making her the exception and not giving her that very small piece of respect that we give people in positions of power.
SHAPIRO: Strategically, politicians often try to seem relatable, which a first name can help achieve. And at the same time, they try to present themselves as leadership figures of authority, which a last name can help achieve. So do you think using a first name has both advantages and disadvantages?
HOLMAN: Yes, absolutely. I do think that this election provides an environment where this might be more positive than negative for Harris. And that's because we're looking at an election where almost all the major issues are domestic policy issues. These are things that voters might actually think women are going to be better at handling.
SHAPIRO: How much do my groceries cost, or do I have access to reproductive health services - that kind of thing?
HOLMAN: Right. We think about parental leave. We think about all of the climate policy. All of these are domestic policies where we actually would expect that women would have some kind of advantage. People think that women are going to be better at handling parental leave. So even though Kamala Harris has never taken parental leave herself, people might think that she is going to understand the decisions around having children.
And so in this particular campaign environment, having a woman on the ticket that regularly reminds people that she is a woman and she has the strengths associated with being a woman is, I think, not a terrible thing for her and for getting enthusiasm up among Democratic voters.
SHAPIRO: In that clip of tape that we heard in the intro, I was struck that Harris replied to the slip up by saying, that's fine. I'm Kamala. What do you make of that?
HOLMAN: Well, you have two options when somebody does that, right? One is that you can be the mean, shrill person and correct people. Or two is that you can just go along with it. And it's often easier to just go along with it, and that's consistent - right? - with these feminine traits of being a good person, helping others, getting along, having good...
SHAPIRO: Making everyone feel comfortable...
HOLMAN: ...Interpersonal skills.
SHAPIRO: ...Even if there's discomfort in the room.
HOLMAN: Right? I'm going to go in, and I'm going to be the social smoother. I'm going to be the one that makes it easy for other people to engage collectively in our conversation. And so on one hand, we have this issue that women are not being given even just this small piece of respect. On the other hand, women are being forced to respond to that with like, oh, it's OK...
SHAPIRO: Right.
HOLMAN: ...Don't worry about it. It's fine.
SHAPIRO: In the case of Vice President Harris, there is also an element of race.
HOLMAN: Yes.
SHAPIRO: There are lots of white people with the last name Harris, and there are not lots of white people with the first name Kamala.
HOLMAN: Yeah.
SHAPIRO: And at the Republican National Convention last week, a striking number of speakers mispronounced her name. One speaker after another said...
(SOUNDBITE OF MONTAGE)
RONNY JACKSON: Vice President Kamala Harris.
MIKE POMPEO: Kamala Harris...
MATT GAETZ: Kamala Harris...
MADELINE BRAME: Kamala Harris.
DAVID LARA: Kamala Harris.
SHAPIRO: That was former White House physician Ronny Jackson, former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Congressman Matt Gaetz, and speakers Madeline Brame and David Lara. She has been vice president for three years - plenty of time for people to learn how to say her name. So when people mispronounce this...
HOLMAN: And a senator before that...
SHAPIRO: And a senator...
HOLMAN: ...Right?
SHAPIRO: ...Before that.
HOLMAN: She's been on the national stage for a very long time. We know who she is...
SHAPIRO: So when...
HOLMAN: ...Yeah, absolutely.
SHAPIRO: ...People mispronounce her name, do you also think there is an element of weaponizing race here?
HOLMAN: I think that this is a way that people are refusing to acknowledge any sort of piece of who she is. And there's listeners across the country who have unusual names, will deeply identify with the problem of how often do you correct somebody that mispronounce your name - particularly if you have, say, an ethnic name that represents something about your heritage.
SHAPIRO: I am smiling with recognition right now.
HOLMAN: Right? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Say you have a work colleague that has mispronounced your name for five years - do you continue to correct them, or do you just kind of smile and nod and go on with it? But we might think about this as a way that there's a signal that you don't belong. We don't even think that you're important enough to learn how to say your name.
SHAPIRO: Well, Professor Holman, thank you so much for talking with us.
HOLMAN: Yeah, absolutely.
SHAPIRO: Mirya Holman is an associate professor at the University of Houston.
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