DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. Singer and actress Cynthia Erivo has just been nominated for a Golden Globe for her performance in the film adaptation of the Broadway musical "Wicked." Here she is singing one of that musical's most iconic songs.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DEFYING GRAVITY")
CYNTHIA ERIVO: (As Elphaba, singing) It's time to try defying gravity. I think I'll try defying gravity. And you can't pull me down.
ARIANA GRANDE: (As Galinda, singing) Can't I make you understand you're having delusions of grandeur?
ERIVO: (As Elphaba, singing) I'm through accepting limits 'cause someone says they're so. Some things I cannot change, but till I try I'll never know. Too long I've been afraid of losing love. I guess I've lost. Well, if that's love, it comes at much too high a cost. I'd sooner buy defying gravity.
BIANCULLI: That's Cynthia Erivo. In 2016, after coming to the U.S. from England, Erivo starred in the Broadway revival of the musical "The Color Purple," winning a Tony and Drama Desk Award. For her starring role as Harriet Tubman in the film "Harriet," she was nominated for an Oscar and also was nominated for the movie's closing credits song "Stand Up," which she co-wrote and sang. Erivo played Aretha Franklin in the TV miniseries "Genius: Aretha." She also co-starred in the HBO series "The Outsider." And she released an album of songs she co-wrote, titled "Ch. 1 Vs. 1," and wrote a children's book called "Remember To Dream, Ebere."
Erivo grew up in South London, where her parents emigrated from Nigeria. Terry Gross spoke with Cynthia Erivo in 2021 and asked her about playing Aretha Franklin. They began with this scene from the miniseries "Genius: Aretha." This is set during Aretha's first recording session for Atlantic Records in 1967. Erivo, as Aretha, is at the piano singing "I Never Loved A Man (The Way I Love You)."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GENIUS: ARETHA")
ERIVO: (As Aretha Franklin, singing) You're a no-good heartbreaker. You're a liar, and you're a cheat. I don't know why I let you do these things to me. My friends keep telling me that you ain't no good. Oh, they don't know that I would leave you if I could. Guess I'm uptight, that I'm stuck like glue 'cause I ain't never - I ain't never - I ain't never - no, no - loved a man the way that I - I love you.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: That's Cynthia Erivo from the miniseries "Genius: Aretha." Cynthia Erivo, welcome to FRESH AIR.
ERIVO: Oh, thank you.
GROSS: It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. How did you start listening to Aretha Franklin?
ERIVO: When I was a kid and we would - so there's this radio station in the U.K. called Magic FM. And it plays everything - everything from, let's say - I don't know if you know a band called Mike and the Mechanics to the Eurythmics, to Kate Bush, to Aretha, to Gladys Knight, Patti LaBelle, Lauryn Hill, the whole lot. And so when we were - be on the way to school, my mom would always have that radio station on. And the first time I heard it, it was from there. I think - I want to say the first thing I heard was "Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves." And then I heard - I think it was "Till You Come Back To Me."
So I had heard Aretha in, like, two different ways - one with Annie Lennox and then one on her own - from two different times. And I just sort of fell in love. I didn't really know - 'cause I didn't know who that was - and then I started asking questions. And my mom told me it was Aretha Franklin. And so I was aware of how much I loved music and that I wanted to be a singer. And I just sort of fell in love with her voice. The fact that she could do that with Annie Lennox and then that on her own just was astounding to me.
GROSS: Did you try to emulate her?
ERIVO: I don't think I tried to emulate her. I just wanted to listen to everything she had. And I started learning her music pretty early - yeah.
GROSS: I know you've said that when you were listening to Aretha before playing her that one of the things you were listening for is, where did she breathe?
ERIVO: Oh, yeah.
GROSS: Why was that important?
ERIVO: Because the breath, I think, tells you everything about what the person is trying to say. You know, when you - if you look at a sentence, where the comma goes tells you what the sentence means. If I say, today I've been feeling really, really bad, but - and then I say - today I've been feeling really (pausing) bad; but it'll be all right. Well, now I've - it's - one is, I feel ill, and one is, emotionally, I feel bad. You see? And so when she would - she would breathe in different places, and it would change the sentence structure. It would change the meaning of the song. Another person might sing it a completely different way.
GROSS: Can you sing us an example of what you mean?
ERIVO: I use this song often to explain it because it's - one, it's a beautiful song. And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three, it just is a wonderful example of how the breath work changes. It's called "Never Grow Old." I had to learn it for the "Amazing Grace" episode. And it goes like this. The sentence is, I have heard of a land on a faraway strand. That's the sentence. The normal way to sing it is (singing) I have heard of a land on a faraway strand.
Right? She sings, (singing) I have heard of a land on a far, faraway strand.
GROSS: You get the impression that it's more far away (laughter)...
ERIVO: Exactly.
GROSS: ...The way you sang it.
ERIVO: Exactly.
GROSS: Yeah. But it - I'll tell you, it was beautiful both ways.
ERIVO: She just has this way with music. The way she manipulates it and uses it to tell the story is really special. And it's that sort of making you wait for the explanation 'cause when - it's a difference between moving from one note to the other really quickly - I have heard - as opposed to, I have heard of a land, you know?
GROSS: You met her twice backstage at "The Color Purple" and at the Kennedy Center. Did you feel like you were able to have a meaningful conversation with her? I think sometimes, like, when you meet somebody who's so important to you, you just don't know what to say.
ERIVO: I think that was - I was that. I didn't really know what to say, but I was also sort of disarmed by how funny she was. She was so, like, jovial. She joked - that when I first met her, she sang the last sentence of my big song back at me. And so I almost fell over 'cause Aretha Franklin is singing, and I'm here, back at me (laughter). And I just - I didn't know what to do. I think I just laughed. I was just like, oh, my God. And I remember her saying you - well, you can sing. You can sing. I was like, OK. Oh, my God. This is nuts. It just, you know - I don't know if I needed anything more meaningful than that, to be honest, 'cause if the Queen of Soul can remember you as the person who can sing, well, wonderful.
GROSS: She was brought up in the church, and she was brought up singing gospel in the church, on tours through the South and in her father's church. And so when she started singing R&B, it was so church-influenced. And I'm wondering about if you grew up churched at all in England and, if so, what the music was like.
ERIVO: We did - I did grow up in church, but different 'cause I'm - Roman Catholic is what I was raised on. And then - but I was a bit of a rebel. So when I was in church, it was a lot of, like, Christian hymns. And I wanted more because I was sort of - I was listening to gospel music, and I was learning about gospel singers, and I was learning about that sound. And I wanted to hear it in my own church.
So one of the churches when I - we moved to East London from South London, and that church had a choir. So I remember they asked if I could join the choir, and so I did. And then somehow, I managed to end up being, like, one of the conductors of the choir. And I would just, like, sneak gospel songs in from time to time and just have them, like, sing a couple gospel songs. Consequently, I got into trouble for it. And they were like, you can't sing those songs in here anymore. And I never understood why because I felt like all music that was for the same reason was equal and was meaningful.
GROSS: Was the objection to the gospel music the lyrics of the song or the style of singing?
ERIVO: I think it's the style of singing. I think the style of singing was the - was where the objection came. There's a particularly straight-laced way of praising that's correct for the Catholic Church. There's a specific way that you should do it, and there's a specific thing that you can sing. There are specific songs. And anything outside of the lines is too far.
GROSS: Was this a predominantly white congregation?
ERIVO: Very much so, yes. Yeah.
BIANCULLI: Terry Gross speaking with Cynthia Erivo. She's currently starring in the film adaptation of the Broadway musical "Wicked." We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Cynthia Erivo, recorded in 2021. She's starring in the new film adaptation of the musical "Wicked." Erivo starred in the Broadway revival of "The Color Purple," played Harriet Tubman in the film "Harriet" and played Aretha Franklin in the TV miniseries "Genius: Aretha."
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: You went to RADA, which is the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in England - very famous school. You didn't know it existed when you were invited to apply for it.
ERIVO: (Laughter) I did not. I did not.
GROSS: Was it revelatory once you got there to study acting in such a formal and probably traditional way?
ERIVO: Yeah. I just - because I didn't know that that was even a possibility when I was going through primary school or secondary school. No one was like, well, we can go to drama school. No one gave me that option. So the whole thing was revelatory. Like, the first year was both discovery and struggle and a half 'cause I was just like, what am I doing here? And I - there's so many things I don't really understand. What was my strong suit was that I was a little bit different to most people, that I was one of the kids that was good at singing. And we had a particularly musical year, so there were a couple of other kids who could sing, too. And actually being able to sing was really useful. And when I started to embrace that, I sort of could see where the opportunities were.
Some people were really wonderful at the classics and at Jacobeans. And, you know, those kids that came from Eton who had read those things were brilliant at those things. But I wasn't that. My raw talent came from understanding music. So when we started talking about Sondheim and learning those songs, for me, I was in heaven. And when we started reading "Seven Guitars" by August Wilson, I recognized myself in those people because, while it was a Black writer writing about Black people and I could see myself in them, those are plays I had read, and there's a playwright I had heard of. And when you are passionate about acting, Shakespeare was where we all sort of, like, joined hands because, well, we all knew Shakespeare. But now I could have a sort of - a real grasp on the scope with which he wrote.
GROSS: You know, when you were talking about Aretha, you talked about the importance of where you breathe and how it can even change the meaning of a phrase. So when you were learning Sondheim songs - I think breath is really - especially important in those songs in terms of the meaning, but in some of the songs, just in terms of having an opportunity to breathe (laughter) 'cause some of the songs, there isn't a lot of opportunity. And those songs are really rangy, you know? So your breath support would be really important. Is there a song you especially loved when you started singing Sondheim?
ERIVO: I loved "Being Alive." And I loved "The Miller's Son." Have you ever heard "The Miller's Son"?
GROSS: I have. I've seen you sing it on YouTube. So if anybody wants to see it, it's there.
ERIVO: Yeah. That's one of my favorite songs. I just - that is one of those songs where you're like, if you don't breathe in the right place, you won't make it to the end of the sentence.
GROSS: Can you give us an example of what you mean?
ERIVO: Oh, my God. I don't even know if I can remember the lyrics. I haven't done it for such a long time. Is it - (singing) it's a wink and a wiggle and a giggle in the grass. And I'll trip the light fandango. A pinch and a piddle - a pinch and a diddle in the middle of what passes by. It's a very short road from the pinch and the punch to the paunch and the pouch and the pension. It's a very short road to the ten thousandth lunch and the paunch and the pouch and the sigh. In the meanwhile, there are mouths to be kissed before mouths to be fed and a lot in between in the meanwhile. And a girl has to celebrate what passes by. Oh, I shall marry the miller's son.
GROSS: Yeah, thank you. Did you - how did you figure out where to breathe? Did you get advice on that? Did it seem natural?
ERIVO: I got advice. I had a really lovely teacher at RADA. It was Philip. He was just - he was wonderful, actually. I will say that. My singing teacher at RADA - we're all sort of assigned a singing teacher, most of us because we've never sung before, so we can learn about what that is and learn how to connect the singing voice and the singing breath with the speaking voice and the speaking breath, so we don't differentiate the two so far apart that we're afraid of one of them because they're sort of one and the same. And I think that because I was already in tune with my singing voice, what Philip did with me was encourage me to try new things, try more. So he would have me singing arias from "Otello."
GROSS: And were you comfortable singing in an operatic style? Or did it not matter which style you sang in as long as you did the singing?
ERIVO: I was comfortable. Classical music was sort of a love of mine, and then when I went to drama school, my voice was already sort of ready to try that. And it's the same - whilst I was doing "The Color Purple," my singing teacher June - Joan Lader, rather - was wonderful. She would give me classical music or opera to sing 'cause she said that the best way to allow my voice to be open enough to sing what I was singing on stage was to just try something that was totally opposite to it. So you weren't taxing your voice the same way the entire time. You were just sort of opening it up and exercising it but not stressing it.
GROSS: Can you give us an example of how you learned to open up your voice?
ERIVO: I'll do one of the first things I did at secondary school, actually, because we'd always do sort of, like, the end-of-year, like, choral show. And this one year, we decided to do "Rutter Requiem," the "Rutter Requiem" by John Rutter. And I was asked to sing "Pie" - there's a version of "Pie Jesu" for the John Rutter requiem. And it's very special. Who knows if I can still do these notes? But I'll give it a go.
(Singing in Latin).
Then it would change keys.
(Singing in Latin).
And this key change was always really difficult.
(Singing in Latin).
GROSS: Oh, so beautiful. Now, what about that opened your voice?
ERIVO: I guess there's a couple of things that are happening. Your breath is different. The way you place - the way you use your tongue is different. The tongue placement is different in your mouth. It's almost like - even the way you use the muscles in your face - often to make those sounds, the - your jaw has to be slightly lowered and relaxed. And often - I don't know if you - when you watch me sing, you'll see that I sing often with a bit of a smile on. One, I'm enjoying myself. But two, when you smile, everything else is relaxed.
BIANCULLI: Cynthia Erivo speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. She is currently starring in the film adaptation of the Broadway musical "Wicked." We'll hear more of their interview after a break. Also, Ken Tucker plays us some great new Christmas music. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE WIZARD AND I")
ERIVO: (As Elphaba, singing) When I meet the wizard, once I prove my worth - and then I meet the wizard, what I've waited for since - since birth. And with all his wizard wisdom, by my looks, he won't be blinded. Do you think...
BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to our interview with Cynthia Erivo. She's just been nominated for a Golden Globe for her performance in the new hit film "Wicked," adapted from the Broadway musical. She won a Tony for her starring role in the Broadway revival of "The Color Purple," and she was nominated for an Oscar for her performance as Harriet Tubman in the film "Harriet." She also was nominated for that film's closing song, "Stand Up," which she sang and co-wrote. Terry Gross spoke to her in 2021.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: Your mother who raised you came from Nigeria. What were her dreams?
ERIVO: She surpassed a lot of her dreams. Her dream was to be a nurse. So she got that and then had to change it. I watched her sort of go, OK, I got my nursing degree. Now, what else do I want? I think she definitely wanted to be in the U.K. with her - with children. I know she wanted children. I think she wanted more children than she has, but she's very happy with the two that she does. And I think that she sort of learned after the dream of being a nurse came true that she had this sort of passion for taking care of children, full stop.
And so she focused her studies on the cognitive health of children and ended up becoming - there's a position in the U.K. called health visitor. And her job specifically is to help new mothers with children from the age of, say, 1 month, almost, to the age of 3 just with, like, learning, cognitive skills and making sure that the mother isn't suffering from postpartum - and if they are, then she can help. And she makes sure that the children are latching in the right way, or if there's anything going on or there's colic or all of those things. All the things that you would - you might panic about if you don't have any guidance, my mother is there to help you with. That's what her job used to be. And she sort of flew with it. She kind of rose to the top of the ranks on that one. Yeah.
GROSS: Was it reassuring to you to have a mother who knew what to do if something went wrong?
ERIVO: Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah. She's cool. It's really fun.
GROSS: (Laughter).
ERIVO: I realize that she's, like, the child whisperer. It's really fun watching her with other people's children 'cause they don't really know how it's done. And I don't know how it's done. I feel like I've been - it feels like it's, like, in our genes because I end up being the same with kids, and I don't really need to do very much. And kids sort of are like, oh, what's this interesting-looking being sitting next to me? I want to know who that person is. And we're off to the races. It's hilarious. I think she passed it on.
GROSS: Your parents separated, I think, when you were pretty young. And by the time you were 16, your father told you and your sister that he was done.
ERIVO: Well, yeah, he told me. He told...
GROSS: Oh, it was just you?
ERIVO: ...Just me. He told me that he was out of our lives. And I sort of had to relay the message to everyone, yeah.
GROSS: What was your reaction? Could you see that coming?
ERIVO: I didn't see it coming. Although, I - in hindsight, I probably should have seen it coming. But I didn't see it coming 'cause, you know, what 16-year-old would? At the time, I was heartbroken 'cause it was in public when it happened as well. So it was just, like, not fun. But, yeah, it was deeply disappointing, deeply heartbreaking. And I think I felt bad for having to have to bring that information back to my house, to my mom and my sister. And I remember it was in the middle of a school day, so I still had to go through school. That was not fun.
GROSS: Did he give you an explanation?
ERIVO: No. Not really, no. No. I think he just had - I think he was finished being a dad.
GROSS: And did you think that there was something about you that made him leave? Or did you think, like, he's being mean and thoughtless in doing this, and that's on him, not on me?
ERIVO: I don't know. I don't know if I was thinking about that. I never really compartmentalized it. I just saw someone doing something that hurt me. And I think it was just sort of as simple as that - like, someone is - he was doing something that he knew would hurt me to be mean and spiteful. But I knew that he was going to stick to it. I knew that it wasn't, like, a jab that he would take back at some point.
GROSS: Have you spoken to him since?
ERIVO: No.
GROSS: Wow.
ERIVO: Actually - tell a lie. I bumped into him randomly at a cousin's wedding. We had an awkward sort of hello. And that was - that's it - when I was 25.
GROSS: I want to play another song from your new album. And this is called "The Good." Do you want to say something about what you were thinking about when you wrote it?
ERIVO: Yeah. So when I wrote it, I - we had gotten to a point where I knew that we needed an up-tempo song. We needed something with, like - that felt upbeat and that felt fun. But I love writing ballads. I love writing love songs. I can't help it. It's so - and so I'm a mid-tempo to slow song.
GROSS: Don't need to apologize.
ERIVO: That's what I do. And I'm - like, I enjoy them. I enjoy singing 'cause of the space in them. But then - and so as we started writing, I thought, well, what can you make this about? And my friend, who is also the EP on this album with me - he said that he had been talking to a friend of ours about the relationship that she had had with her father. She said that the relationship wasn't great all the time, but they were starting to rebuild and that they were starting to have some really good moments. And then he passed away. And then she said, but she just wants to remember the good. And the light bulb went off, and I was like, that's the song, that song. The song is about remembering the good even when something ends maybe not in the best of ways.
GROSS: Well, let's hear the song. This is "The Good" from Cynthia Erivo's new album, "Ch. 1 Vs 1."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE GOOD")
ERIVO: (Singing) Gone is the way we used to smile, my dear. Hope doesn't spring from anywhere. Watching the world forget to breathe. Wish we could stop and feel the breeze. But I know there's no point in waiting for what I can't see. Holding my chest as all my tears fall out. My mind's in a spin as all the pain pours down. What can I do to make these days go by? I haven't the strength to make the rainfall die. Just wanna remember the good, good, good, good, good. Wanna remember the good, good, good, good, good. What can I do to make these days go by when darkness surrounds me, but I see the light? Just wanna remember the good.
GROSS: That's Cynthia Erivo from her new album, "Ch. 1 Vs 1."
So this is kind of a personal question in terms of that it has personal meaning for me (laughter). So you're 5-foot-1. Harriet Tubman, who you portrayed, was even shorter. And I'm not quite 5 feet. So as a short person (laughter), I'm wondering if you think it's had much of an impact on your life or your career to be short?
ERIVO: I don't know because I never - I mean, the thing is a lot of people don't realize I am as short as I am until they meet me.
GROSS: I did not realize it. I was reading about you, and I was like, really (laughter)?
ERIVO: I mean, I spend a lot of my time in heels. But, like, often when I'm with other people, they're also, like, dressed up or in their heels. And so when I'm standing there, and then they're like, oh, my goodness, you're really small. I think there have been times often that people assume that because you're small, you are weak or because you're small, sometimes people - they often decide that because you're small, you're also childlike, which sometimes is really strange 'cause you have to sort of correct people and let them understand, well, actually, I'm a fully grown adult. I just happen to be small. So my understanding of what you are saying...
GROSS: (Laughter).
ERIVO: ...What anyone else is saying is just the same.
GROSS: What about chairs? Do you find it's hard to find a chair that fits?
ERIVO: Yes. Like, chairs that are high enough to get to get to tables and stuff?
GROSS: Well, you know, chairs are, like, too deep and, often, too high.
ERIVO: Yeah. And so your legs are swinging off the ground, yeah.
GROSS: So your legs are - right. Exactly.
ERIVO: Yeah, that's a thing. So you end up having to, like, perch to the - at the edge of the seat so your feet can touch the ground. Or...
GROSS: Podiums.
ERIVO: Podiums are hilarious 'cause sometimes you're also like, you know what? Today I'm just going to swallow my pride and ask them for a little step so I can reach the podium and feel like I'm a normal height and reach this thing so I'm not having to tiptoe ever so slightly or wear, you know, 15-inch heels. That is sort of like - it's that - you have to take the good with the bad with it, definitely. Stools, high chairs are really, sometimes, quite difficult because, you know, if you're singing and you want to sit, you're often on a stool, so you have to try and make sure that the stool is not too high for you to sit on. And so I always make the compromise with whatever dress I'm wearing or whatever clothes because if they cover my feet, you can't see how far my feet are from the ground. Yeah.
GROSS: (Laughter) If the stool is to high, you have to kind of shimmy onto it because (laughter)...
ERIVO: Shimmy onto it, yeah, yeah.
GROSS: ...Because you can't reach that height. Your behind doesn't reach that high.
ERIVO: I'm, like, making little jumps to get there. It's like...
GROSS: (Laughter) And then slide down.
ERIVO: ...Doing a vault jump. Oh, my goodness.
GROSS: Cynthia Erivo, it's been so delightful to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. And just thank you for your work.
ERIVO: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. This has been so much fun. You are wonderful, so thank you.
BIANCULLI: Cynthia Erivo recorded in 2021. She's currently starring in the film adaptation of the Broadway musical "Wicked." The first half of the two-part adaptation opened November 22 and already has earned more than $300 million in American ticket sales. Coming up, I'll review the new Prime Video series "The Sticky," which brings the sensibility of the TV series "Fargo" to Canada's syrup industry. This is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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