AILSA CHANG, HOST:
2024 has been Chappell Roan's year. The 26-year-old pop singer has been everywhere from your Instagram feed to "SNL" to festival stages the world over, and she's racked up billions of streams along the way.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HOT TO GO!")
CHAPPELL ROAN: (Singing) H-O-T-T-O-G-O, just snap and clap and touch your toes. Raise your hands, now body-roll. Dance it out, you're hot to go.
CHANG: But you might be less familiar with Chappell's regular cowriter and producer Daniel Nigro. He's nominated for producer of the year at the Grammy Awards, based on his work with Chappell and another singer he's helped propel to superstar status, Olivia Rodrigo.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "VAMPIRE")
OLIVIA RODRIGO: (Singing) The way you sold me for parts as you sunk your teeth into me. Oh, bloodsucker, dream crusher, bleeding me dry, like a d*** vampire.
CHANG: Nigro produced both of Rodrigo's albums, "Sour" and "Guts." And when I spoke to her last year, she had this to say about him.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
RODRIGO: He was a really wonderful guiding light throughout this process. And, you know, obviously, he had been through this very unique situation of this crazy, unprecedented "Sour" success with me, so he could empathize and understand what I was going through whilst also being a little older and wiser than me and being able to guide me. So that definitely helped.
CHANG: The ascent of Olivia Rodrigo and Chappell Roan into the pop star stratosphere has helped establish Nigro as the man with the Midas touch when it comes to making pop songs for a new generation. When I caught up with him recently, I asked him what it took to guide Chappell to where she is today from when they first met way back in 2018.
DANIEL NIGRO: When I met Chappell, she was 20, about to be 21, and she was always Chappell Roan. It had a very different aesthetic to it. It was definitely, like, a little bit darker and moodier in the music tone. And, basically, the first song we ever wrote was this song called "Love Me Anyway."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOVE ME ANYWAY")
ROAN: (Singing) It's hard to admit I was the one to blame.
NIGRO: And then it wasn't until February of the next year she came in and she was like, I want to write a song called "Pink Pony Club." I remember, like, kind of looking at her like, what?
CHANG: (Laughter).
NIGRO: Like, you know, like - 'cause when - if you just hear the name, "Pink Pony Club," out of context of hearing the song...
CHANG: Totally.
NIGRO: ...And especially at the time, when all of her music was really dark and moody...
CHANG: Right.
NIGRO: ...You know, I was like - I was a little bit, like, what?
CHANG: Is that ironic (laughter)?
NIGRO: Like, yeah, I was a little bit confused as to what she meant. So she started explaining. She wanted kind of, like, this dancy (ph) song. I was excited 'cause - but at the same time a little bit, like, you want a dance song? So we started writing the song over a beat.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PINK PONY CLUB")
ROAN: (Singing) Black lights and a mirrored disco ball, every night's another reason why I left it all.
CHANG: OK, so the rhythm was first.
NIGRO: The rhythm was first. So we knew what it was going to feel like when it was dancy. I remember feel - I - you - I get this feeling - I've got this feeling a couple of times in my career of, like, when you write a song that's so bold your body, like, starts to give you these really - for me personally, like, it gives me these, like, weird mixed signals that - 'cause you're like, you start to like it so much, and then you actually, like, feel like it's special. But then you feel like, oh, are people going to understand this? This does feel really special, so I hope that people understand it.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PINK PONY CLUB")
ROAN: (Singing) Pink Pony Club. I'm going to keep on dancing at the Pink Pony Club. I'm going to keep on dancing down in West Hollywood.
CHANG: So when you were writing "Pink Pony Club" and you were feeling that ambivalence, did you know at the time, like, this is going to be a hit?
NIGRO: No, no. So at the time, I was - 'cause - so I guess this is going to your question kind of about, like...
CHANG: How she's evolved.
NIGRO: ...How she's evolved. And I feel like that was the moment, to me, was like this perfectly encapsulates her personality, which can be both sides of being super euphoric and then also being, like, on the sadder side of the musical spectrum, you know?
CHANG: I love listening to the way you interpret the artist's voice. Like, the way you're like, oh, this song, "Pink Pony Club," it actually even more encapsulated who Chappell is. And the thing I want to understand about you is how you do help artists hear their own voices as they're working with you because you are a decade-and-a-half older than either Chappell or Olivia. You're a man. Does that age and gender gap ever get in the way when you're helping them bring their visions to life? I love the face you just made. It was like, ugh (laughter).
NIGRO: No, no, I don't think so. I think that that's - I think - I feel like it's almost, like, a better question to ask them in a certain way, like, 'cause I don't feel it. I feel like...
CHANG: You don't feel that gap?
NIGRO: I feel like the - I mean, like, even, like, if you're talking about, like, Olivia going through certain things like...
CHANG: Love.
NIGRO: ...Simple as a breakup.
CHANG: Yeah.
NIGRO: I played in an emo band, you know? Like, I was an emotional, like, 20-year-old at one point. So, like, asking me if I can relate to those feelings, of course I can, you know?
CHANG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am so curious, though, like, when you're working with an artist like Chappell, were there any - ever any disagreement as to the direction a song should go? And who wins when there is a disagreement?
NIGRO: We - I think we get to share wins. I'll give you an example of both. So in "Pink Pony Club," when I first made the demo of the song, where the guitar solo is I had a synth solo. Like, I literally was just, like, me playing the Juno-60, like, doing a solo on the synth. And then I sent it to her, and I was really excited about it. She's like, no, it should be a guitar solo. And I was like, a guitar solo? And I remember, like, at first being like, a guitar solo? Like, who does guitar solos, you know? Like...
CHANG: A lot of people do guitar solos.
NIGRO: And I was like, OK. And I was like, OK, sure, like, I'll try a guitar solo.
(SOUNDBITE OF CHAPPELL ROAN SONG, "PINK PONY CLUB")
NIGRO: That was a moment where, like, I remember, like, at first being like, huh? Like, why does she want a guitar solo here, you know?
CHANG: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you give room for her to be right, and then you experiment.
NIGRO: Yes. Experiment, yeah. And then she let me win on "Red Wine Supernova" because the rhythm is (imitating musical rhythm).
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "RED WINE SUPERNOVA")
ROAN: (Singing) She was a playboy, Brigitte Bardot.
NIGRO: I was just pushing for it to be, like, so over the top. Like, she didn't want it to be over the top. And she, like - and I remember having a moment of, we were just like - I was like, just go with me on it - you know? - and, like, she kind of was like, OK, and we, like, went full camp, you know?
CHANG: Yeah.
NIGRO: And I think that was a big...
CHANG: And you sold her.
NIGRO: And I sold her on, like, going over the top. And I remember she - when we finally, like, laid down the vocals for the song, with, like, the let's pick it up now, and, like, just like the overt campiness of it...
CHANG: Right, right.
NIGRO: ...That she was like, OK, this is awesome.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "RED WINE SUPERNOVA")
ROAN: (Singing) OK, y'all, let's pick it up now. I don't care that you're a stoner. Red wine supernova, fall right into me.
CHANG: I mean, this is the joy of collaboration...
NIGRO: Yeah.
CHANG: ...You stretch each other. You make each other grow...
NIGRO: Yeah.
CHANG: ...And you take risks because you trust the other person...
NIGRO: Yes.
CHANG: ...And make something cool.
NIGRO: I think that's the important part, like, is like, no, you have to listen to each other. And then at the end of the day it's like, OK, great. You know what? You were right.
CHANG: Yeah.
NIGRO: Like, you - I can't believe that I didn't hear this before, yeah.
CHANG: That's so cool. You trust each other's intuition.
NIGRO: Yeah.
CHANG: I think that's great. Producer Dan Nigro. He's up for producer of the year at this year's Grammy Awards. Good luck, babe.
NIGRO: Good luck, babe (laughter).
CHANG: Sorry, I had to (laughter). Thank you so much for coming to visit me at NPR West. This was so terrific to be talking to you.
NIGRO: Thank you. Thank you, I appreciate it.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "GOOD LUCK, BABE!")
ROAN: (Singing) ...I call baby. You can kiss a hundred boys in bars, shoot another shot, try to stop the feeling. You can say it's just the way you are, make a new excuse, another stupid reason. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
