ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
In Gaza, a ceasefire that started Sunday has given Palestinians a chance to return to homes that they fled months ago. NPR producer Anas Baba described this scene in Rafah, a city in southern Gaza on the border with Egypt.
ANAS BABA, BYLINE: Eight months ago, this street was called Paris Street in Rafah. By now, it seems that the Israeli bombardment left nothing from this Champs-Elysees of Rafah. We can see that the infrastructure - the streets, roads, waterpipes - every single thing that's needed for a human in order to be inhabitant place is lacking here in Rafah.
SHAPIRO: It's not clear who will rebuild Gaza, who will manage the territory or even whether this ceasefire will hold. To help us answer some of those questions, Israel's ambassador to the U.N., Danny Danon, joins us now. Welcome back to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
DANNY DANON: Thank you for having me, Ari.
SHAPIRO: President Trump is taking credit for the ceasefire agreement, and you have praised his administration. What specifically did he or his team do that made a difference in getting this deal?
DANON: We thank both administrations, Trump's administration and Biden administration, for working together on this particular issue. And, you know, Ari, you know politics very well. To see both administrations aligning and working together, it's rare. And I think the fact that we had the support of President Biden and his team and President-elect Trump at the time and his team, it helped us to reach this framework for the release of the hostages.
SHAPIRO: I know as an ambassador, as a diplomat, you do not want to alienate either side. Before Joe Biden left the White House, he said that this deal was not meaningfully different from one that was on the table last summer.
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JOE BIDEN: This was the deal that I outlined for the world back on May 31, and many of you covered it at the time.
SHAPIRO: Ambassador, do you agree with that description? And if it is effectively the same deal, why did the fighting continue for more than half a year longer?
DANON: So, a few points - first of all, it's not the same deal. It's a similar deal, but the number of hostages that we accepted - we were going to receive is higher at this deal. And the second point, which is the most important, that Hamas rejected the offers back in May. So I think the fact that now, because of the pressure that we put on the ground and the pressure of the negotiators and the pressure that both President Biden and President Trump put on the negotiators, we saw that the deal happened, and we hope it will be completed.
SHAPIRO: Netanyahu has also faced pushback from people in his own government, his own coalition. As you know, extreme far-right Israeli politicians have already resigned or threatened to resign over the ceasefire deal. One of them, Bezalel Smotrich, says he has, quote, "demanded and received a commitment from Netanyahu that Israel will return to the battlefield to eliminate Hamas." Is that true? Has Israel committed to return to the battlefield, or is it committed to extending the ceasefire?
DANON: So if you go back to the goals (ph) of the war that the government approved is the release of the hostages and to make sure that Hamas is not taking control over Gaza again. So I think what we will have to see, once the negotiations will resume, whether we can find an agreement that Hamas will not stay in power, will not have control over the future of the Palestinians in Gaza. Otherwise, we will have to find other ways to ensure that. And by the way, it's not only for our sake or our security, but it's also for the Palestinians themselves. There is no future for Gaza with Hamas. There is no...
SHAPIRO: So are you saying Smotrich is wrong - that Netanyahu has not committed to Israel returning to the battlefield?
DANON: Well, you know, if you look at the agreement, it is very clear. The agreements say that if there will be no negotiations, then we can resume the fights. But if we can get with negotiations an agreement that Hamas will not stay in Gaza and allowing other forces to take over and to start to reconstruct Gaza, that should be the goal of everybody. But if Hamas will insist to continue with the incitement of taking the fund of the international community to dig tunnels and to build infrastructure of terror, that's something that we will not allow.
SHAPIRO: I want to ask you about the plan for reconstruction because even after more than a year of war, Israel has not released a detailed plan for who will govern Gaza when the war ends. And in fact, even before the war, Israel severely limited the amount of construction materials that were allowed in the Gaza Strip, out of concern that Hamas would use them to build tunnels and bunkers. With millions of tons of rubble, who will rebuild this area?
DANON: First, let's acknowledge that when we saw what Hamas did with materials that entered or were smuggled into Gaza, they didn't invest them in schools or hospitals. They built a network of terror. I want to remind you that we actually found some of it. You know, the tunnel system in Gaza, it's longer than the subway stations in New York City and London combined. So if you allow Hamas to stay in power...
SHAPIRO: So this is the reason Israel has given for not allowing construction equipment in the Gaza Strip, but the question is, if Israel continues to limit...
DANON: As long as Hamas is in...
SHAPIRO: Yeah.
DANON: As long as Hamas is in power, there will be limitations. As long as Hamas is in power, there will be no reconstruction. So I think the first goal should be to find a way to make sure that Hamas is not running the life of the Gazan people.
SHAPIRO: And then who manages the Gaza Strip? Israel has yet to answer that question.
DANON: Well, I can tell you that we have no intention to run Gaza. We have done it in the past. We moved out of Gaza in 2005 completely, by the way.
SHAPIRO: You've also said the U.N. should not, and you've raised concerns about the Palestinian Authority. So then, who?
DANON: Well, first, I want to remind you that we disengaged completely from Gaza in 2005, and we took out all the settlements. And we allowed the Palestinians to run their own life, but it didn't work. Hamas took over, and we saw what happened. I think there should be a few stages. I think there should be support from the international community at the first stage. And in the long run, it should be a leadership that will come from the people in Gaza that will deal with the education and infrastructure and not with terror. That is the real question, whether you can find a genuine leadership that is not inciting against Israel and promoting radical ideas.
SHAPIRO: You have said that this ceasefire can only progress if Hamas does not control Gaza, and already in the last few days, we have seen men with guns and uniforms and balaclavas in pickup trucks throughout the Gaza Strip as Hamas reasserts its power. President Trump has said he is not confident that this ceasefire will hold. Are you?
DANON: Well, I do hope so. You know, we want to see those hostages - and I remind you, we're talking about babies, women who were kidnapped from their homes. It's not the same terrorists that Hamas demanded to release - convicted murderers. So we want it to be completed. We want to see them back home, and hopefully we will see them. You know, we anticipating every day to get the names and to see those faces coming back and reuniting with their families.
SHAPIRO: Danny Danon is Israel's ambassador to the United Nations. Thank you for speaking with us.
DANON: Thank you very much, Ari.
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