STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
President Trump's administration says it withdrew a memo that was telling federal agencies to stop trillions of dollars in spending mandated by congress. The administration faced a lawsuit for seizing power that belonged to congress. But the administration then made contradictory seeming statements about whether they were rescinding the memo or going ahead with the president's priorities. So we called Patty Murray, senator - Democratic - from Washington state to ask if she believes the government is making payments as usual.
PATTY MURRAY: Well, that is the question on everyone's mind. I mean, the memo that came out on Monday night, late Monday night, across the board, across the country to agencies everywhere - from community health centers to Head Start programs, to domestic violence shelters - it was incredible, just saying we are freezing your funding. That - can you imagine if you are a Head Start program and you're - do we open our doors this morning? Can I pay my staff? I mean, multiply that times hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. It was a huge violation of trust, but it was also a violation of law. The president doesn't have the authority to freeze spending like that.
So this actually put everybody in chaos. And then we immediately - the public outpouring made a difference. And the president put - or his staff put out another memo rescinding it. And then his White House staff press secretary said the exact opposite moments later. So I would say, today, everyone is still confused. It is still chaotic.
INSKEEP: Well, it occurs to me that by backing off the memo, the administration may avoid a court ruling against them and then preserve some ambiguity about what they can or can't do. And maybe they can go in and be more specific or more targeted in what spending they hold back. Would you concede the president may have some authority to hold back some money sometimes?
MURRAY: Look, it is very clear to me from Day 1 that this administration is pushing what they call their ability to freeze federal funding, or the actual legal word is impound federal funding. That is in violation of our Constitution. It is in violation of our laws. The way this works - and it has been tried in courts many times - is that Congress has, quote, "the power of the purse, " meaning we come. We represent our districts, our states. We hammer out a budget and what our priorities are and our spending plans. We pass it, Democrats and Republicans in the House and Senate, the president signs it into law. He cannot then break that law and say, well, I like this part and not this part. That's called impoundment, and it is illegal.
But his administration has made it clear that they don't think the law should be there. So instead of fighting it in court, what they are doing is saying, we're just going to - we don't believe it's a good law, so we're just not going to do it. Their budget director, who's actually coming up to a vote in my committee today, said to me personally, to other members and in his hearings that he believes that impoundment is not a fair law, and he is going to violate it.
INSKEEP: Well, let's talk about that. Russ Vought is the person you're talking about. He's been on NPR before.
MURRAY: Right.
INSKEEP: He has an expansive view of presidential authority that appears to match that of the president he proposes to serve. And you understand him to want a constitutional test here. Is that what you're saying?
MURRAY: Well, I mean, what he's doing is obviously trying to get a constitutional test, but the fact is that this is law. They cannot ultimately say, well, we don't like this law, we don't like that law, so we're not going to follow it. We are a nation of laws. And this administration - the Trump administration, the Republicans - have made it clear that they just are going to violate every law and take it to court. We shouldn't run that way, because why? The exact chaos that has happened over the last several days.
INSKEEP: Can I just mention, I mean, you're serving in the Senate with Republicans. Some of them I'm sure you disagree with them about everything, but there're Republicans who might have your view of the institution. They disagree with you on policies but...
MURRAY: Yes.
INSKEEP: ...Mitch McConnell comes to mind, somebody who sticks up for his institution even if you disagree with everything he ever does. On this issue of the president trying to impound money, are you finding any Republicans who agree with your view and are willing to stick up for the institution as you see it?
MURRAY: Absolutely, and I'll tell you why, because what goes around comes around. And if they violate this law and take it to the courts and try and undo it or do undo it, it doesn't just apply to this administration. It applies to every administration in the future. So at a point when we have a Democratic president, it leaves Republicans saying, well, why should I agree on this bill and vote for it if the president can then just say, well, I'm going to support the Democrats' side but not what the Republicans asked for?
An agreement is an agreement. You know, the bills that we pass that appropriate money across the board are done in a bipartisan vote. I don't have any memory in my mind in the number of years I've been here where a bill - an appropriation bill passed only on Democratic votes or only on Republican votes and got signed into law. It takes both parties. It takes compromise. It takes agreement. If you go to the table and think, well, I'm compromising with you and passing this, but it doesn't really mean anything because the president's going to change it, where's the trust? You can't vote for that, Republicans or Democrats.
INSKEEP: Let me ask another question about compromise. I read sometimes this Substack by Dan Pfeiffer, who's a former aide to President Obama - very interesting, about politics. And he is arguing for Democrats to speak up more forcefully against this president and essentially to oppose everything that he does. Why give him any wins? Why say that I will vote for some of his cabinet nominees? Why give him any compromises, any victories? Do you feel you understand, in about 20 seconds, the approach that Democrats should take to President Trump over the next few months?
MURRAY: I think what we do is point out clearly and loudly, just like we did with this memo that came out Monday night, what is happening to real American families that are losing out by the actions this president has taken. And we have to vote accordingly.
INSKEEP: Democratic Senator Patty Murray of Washington state. Thanks for taking the time. I really appreciate it.
MURRAY: Thank you.
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