SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Religion has been a source material for art as long as - well, as long as there has been art and been religion, and that has certainly been the case with movies from the silent film era's exploration of faith in films like "The Passion Of Joan Of Arc" to the recent best picture nominee, "Conclave."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CONCLAVE")
RALPH FIENNES: (As Cardinal Lawrence) If there was only certainty and no doubt, there would be no mystery and therefore no need for faith.
DETROW: And even for those of us who live more secular lives, movies continue to offer a bit of a cinematic catechism with stories from the Bible and other religious traditions. And with Passover and Holy Week underway, we figured it would be a good time to talk about faith and film. I'm joined by NPR's religion correspondent, Jason DeRose. Hey, Jason.
JASON DEROSE, BYLINE: Hello.
DETROW: And we are joined by Michel Martin, who hosts Morning Edition but, much more importantly for us, was the longtime host of ALL THINGS CONSIDERED on the weekends. Welcome back, Michelle.
MICHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Absolutely, much more important - thank you so much for having me back.
DETROW: We are thrilled to have you here. Let's start with this. Jason, I guess, there's a lot of movies where spirituality or religious themes permeate them, but there is also a big genre of explicitly religious movies. What is your general view of that genre? Does it work for you? Do you have some problems with it?
DEROSE: Yeah, they just don't really work for me. I respond badly to them. For instance, biblical epics, I find them incredibly hokey. This is where I will admit that I have never seen the film, "The Ten Commandments."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Thus sayith the Lord God of Israel. Let my people go.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) The slaves are mine. Their lives are mine. All that they own is mine.
DEROSE: But the ones that I have seen, such as, you know, "The Greatest Story Ever Told," I'm kind of confused by who really watches them and who really loves them and finds them, like, religiously meaningful to them because I just - you know, I focus on, like, they wouldn't have been doing that, or, you know, Jesus didn't have blue eyes.
MARTIN: Can I throw shade right now? - because we watch "The Ten Commandments" every year, OK?
DEROSE: (Laughter) OK.
MARTIN: And it's just because it's like going to grandma's house and getting those butterscotch candies, right? It's just something you do.
DETROW: Yeah.
MARTIN: To me, that's not a religious film. That's like a family film that you see with your grandma.
DETROW: Do either of you have - and I can go first, but whether it's the kind of movies that religious themes are infused or whether it's overtly religious movies - is there one that comes to mind, an entry point? Like, I will say, for me, I went to Catholic school - I went to a Jesuit school - and we had to watch - like, every year, I feel like we had to watch that mid-'80s movie, "The Mission" about South American Jesuit missionaries.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE MISSION")
JEREMY IRONS: (As Gabriel) They say it was the will of God that they came out of the jungle and built the mission. They don't understand why God has changed his mind.
DETROW: I think it has a great soundtrack that holds up. I have not revisited it in a long time as an adult with a more nuanced view of the world, but I feel like that is a front and center movie from this genre for me. I'm curious about the two of you.
DEROSE: Well, I have a very specific group of religion movies that I actually like quite a lot, and they are comedies. They're the Monty Python films - "The Life Of Brian," "The Holy Grail," "The Meaning Of Life." "The Meaning Of Life" has one of the funniest songs I ever heard in my life - "Every Sperm Is Sacred."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "EVERY SPERM IS SACRED")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character, singing) Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.
DEROSE: This probably says a lot about me and my sense of humor and my approach to religion...
MARTIN: It totally does.
DEROSE: ...Which is...
MARTIN: Just saying (laughter).
DEROSE: ...You know, approach it with a real sense of humor.
MARTIN: One of my favorite films, if you want to call it a religious film, is "The Apostle" with Robert Duvall.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE APOSTLE")
ROBERT DUVALL: (As The Apostle E.F.) Now, tell me - should I lay hands on myself? What shall I do? I know I'm a sinner every (ph) once in a while. What man hasn't (ph)? But I'm your servant.
MARTIN: To me, it really shows, like, the adult version of the Bible, which is that in this film, he's actually a terrible person. But he is a great spiritual leader, and you just have to sit with that. I mean, he's - he does all the things. He's drinking. He's cheating. But then when he goes to plant a church, he is truly gifted in this area. And I just think that you have to sit with that. I think a lot of people particularly who, as you put it earlier, Scott, live more secular lives, struggle with, like, how can that be, that you could follow this person religiously or spiritually while knowing or suspecting that that person doesn't have this pristine kind of personal life, or their personal behavior is somehow lacking? I just look at that, and to me, it's - I know it's a fictional film, but it's kind of like a documentary for me because I think it explains a lot.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ARRIVAL")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) There are days that define your story beyond your life...
(SOUNDBITE OF AIR RAID SIREN BLOWING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) ...Like the day they arrived.
MARTIN: The other film that I - is, like, "Arrival," for example...
DETROW: Yes.
MARTIN: ...Which is, again, like, science - it's supposedly science fiction, right? But, like, I think a lot of films in sci-fi also - or that are technically sci-fi actually live in a - to me, in a spiritual space because they ask hard questions. What is the meaning of existence, and how do we know?
DETROW: And how do we deal with fate?
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ARRIVAL")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Despite knowing the journey and where it leads, I embrace it.
DETROW: Religious themes are obviously big, overarching things that people have been trying to figure out for thousands and thousands of years with mixed success. And it's almost like sometimes if a movie tries to bite off too much of that big idea, it's going to falter because it's so weighty, and it's hard to tell a good story. And maybe humor is the better way through it. But, like, do you think that there are examples of a movie trying to be a big, sweepy religious movie and just biting off more than it can chew?
MARTIN: I just don't think every movie is for everyone, like, just like Jason was throwing shade at "The Ten Commandments." Well, "The Ten Commandments" is a good movie for kids. You know, there's bad guy, there's good guy, and there's the guy who thinks that he's supposed to be the man, and then he's not and jealousy and miracles.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) He opens the waters before them, and he bars our way with fire. Let us go from this place. Men cannot fight against a god.
MARTIN: A friend of mine, who is a rabbi, called it pediatric Judaism.
(LAUGHTER)
DEROSE: That's a great turn of phrase.
MARTIN: So OK, what's so terrible?
DETROW: What is a film that you would maybe recommend to particularly someone who's agnostic or a nonbeliever to - as an in point for how faith can move people so deeply and also make a good movie?
DEROSE: Well, one of my favorite religion movies is one from the 1980s called "Babette's Feast." And it's the story of this sect of pietous Lutherans in 19th century Denmark who, through some strange circumstances, get a French cook to live in their house. And she prepares this incredibly lavish meal for these very stern, pietous Lutherans. And she just melts their heart with delicious things, with wine and food. And there's this beautiful little section where one of the guests whose heart has melted because of this amazing food that he was given - he says, the moment comes when we realize grace is infinite - we need only wait for it with confidence and acknowledge it with gratitude; grace makes no condition. It is such a beautiful, beautiful movie.
MARTIN: He stole my recommendation.
DEROSE: Really?
MARTIN: I was totally going to see "Babette's Feast."
DEROSE: Oh, really?
MARTIN: Beyond that, I would say "Conclave."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CONCLAVE")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) Father Bellini.
FIENNES: (As Cardinal Lawrence) Aldo.
STANLEY TUCCI: (As Cardinal Bellini) Am I the last?
FIENNES: (As Cardinal Lawrence) Not quite. How are you?
TUCCI: (As Cardinal Bellini) Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful.
MARTIN: It's beautifully photographed. You don't have to be Catholic. I think if you're a person who's antireligion or feels like, oh, my gosh, it's just so much politics, you're going to be fine. But, you know, you'll enjoy that part. But if you think, you know, there might be more to it, despite that - the politics and so forth - then it also, I think, shares an important word about the enduring power of faith, whether it is your faith or not or whether you have a faith or not.
DETROW: Plus, I think we can all agree that it's nice to look at the Sistine Chapel.
MARTIN: I'm sorry, I'm going for the costumes. I mean, the outfits are fabulous.
DETROW: (Laughter).
DEROSE: Isabella Rossellini is worth the price of admission.
DETROW: That is NPR's religion correspondent, Jason DeRose. Jason, thank you so much.
DEROSE: You're welcome.
DETROW: And, Michel Martin, always great to have you back on the weekends with us - really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you.
MARTIN: Likewise, thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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