A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Pope Francis was the first Jesuit to become head of the Catholic Church. We're going to turn now to a Jesuit priest for a reaction to the pope's death. Father Jim Martin is editor-at-large of America Media, which is a national Catholic magazine. Father, welcome. What was your first reaction when you heard the news?
JIM MARTIN: Well, sadness, of course, but also some shock, given that he had just been with the Vatican's - you know, at St. Peter's Basilica for Easter. And, you know, he obviously just pushed it right up until the end.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, you're known as one of the major advocates for LGBTQ Catholics. What will Pope Francis' legacy be among most LGBTQ+ Catholics?
MARTIN: Pope Francis did more for LGBTQ Catholics and LGBTQ people in general than all of his predecessors combined. He was the first pope ever to use the word gay. He called for the decriminalization of homosexuality. He met with LGBTQ people. He met regularly with transgender people. So this is a pope who really wanted to emphasize pastoral outreach to this group of people that he felt had been marginalized for too long in their own church.
MARTÍNEZ: You've had the opportunity to speak directly with Pope Francis about the church and the LGBTQ+ community. Was there an evolution in his thinking, or is this the kind of beliefs that he has always held, do you think?
MARTIN: Well, from the very first time that I met with him in 2019, he seemed very open, and he had already made a lot of comments about LGBTQ people. Probably his five most famous words - who am I to judge? - you know, was in response to a question about gay priests. So my sense was that he brought with him as archbishop of Buenos Aires and, previous to that, as a Jesuit provincial, you know, a deep experience with just ministering to this community, which again, had felt excluded in their own church.
MARTÍNEZ: Those words that he said, who am I to judge? What kind of an impact did people feel when those words were uttered?
MARTIN: Well, a huge impact, and it's amazing we're still talking about it some 10 years later. The question was, you know, what if there's a priest who's gay? And if he says, you know, if someone is looking for God and seeking Him in his own way - I'm paraphrasing - who am I to judge? And I think for a lot of people, they expected him to judge, but, of course, you know, he's following Jesus and the Gospels, who asks us judge not.
MARTÍNEZ: Do you think that his views on LGBTQ people - do you think that moved the needle in any way for Catholic theology or doctrine, or maybe just Catholics in general, around the world?
MARTIN: Well, the doctrine hasn't changed, but in a sense, the approach has. And I can tell you the proof is in the pudding; LGBTQ Catholics have felt more welcome in the church. There are more outreach programs. There are more retreats for LGBTQ Catholics. And look, I think the fact that he's meeting with representatives of that community like myself and other people and meeting with transgender people regularly, that just shows people and kind of invited people, even in places where there was a great deal of homophobia in the culture, to think twice about excluding this community of people.
MARTÍNEZ: You know, when I think about some of the things that he has said and done in relation to LGBTQ+ people, it just seems like the church has options at this point to go in any number of different directions. What are you worried about, or what are you hopeful on when it comes to these issues and the next pope?
MARTIN: Well, I'd be worried about some steps backward, but, you know, my sense is that the people who he has appointed as cardinals understand his approach, and I would certainly hope for a continued pastoral outreach, even if none of the teaching changes. But, again, you know, there's ways of teaching, and I think he taught with his gestures and his words and his welcome. And so I would certainly hope that his successor, whoever it is - only God knows - will continue that welcome that he has sort of set out for us.
MARTÍNEZ: You know, I guess, Father, it's one of the signs of the times, but the first thing I did when I heard the news, I wanted to see what his last social media post was. And on Pope Francis' official X account, his last post was yesterday, Easter Sunday, and it says, Christ has risen. These words capture the entire meaning of our existence, for we were not made for death, but for life. What do you think those words, those two sentences, mean about what kind of a man Pope Francis was?
MARTIN: Well, it's so beautiful. I mean, this is someone who believed in Christ with every fiber of his being. He's someone whose, you know, last public act was to, you know, be present with the faithful at Easter. He celebrated Easter yesterday with the faithful. He celebrates Easter now with Christ in heaven.
MARTÍNEZ: Father Jim Martin is a Jesuit priest. He's also editor-at-large of America Media, which is a national Catholic magazine. Father Martin, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us.
MARTIN: My pleasure.
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