SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
We turn now to another important vote taking place in the coming days, this one in the Sistine Chapel. Now that Pope Francis has been buried, the College of Cardinals is preparing for a conclave. That is when the cardinals meet to elect the next pope - someone who will lead the Catholic Church and its 1.4 billion followers around the world. Philip Shenon's recent book "Jesus Wept: Seven Popes And The Battle For The Soul Of The Catholic Church" looks at the church and its popes over the past 70 years, and it tells the story of a power struggle that began in the late 1950s and still hasn't ended. A lot of that struggle has to do with ideology and the decisions made during Vatican II, a council that made major modernizing changes to the millennia-old institution. I talked to Shenon and began the conversation asking how Pope Francis fits into this legacy.
PHILIP SHENON: Well, the first thing he did is he really wanted to present this message of tolerance and humility, and he wanted the church out of the - you know, the hunt for heresies, the hunt for dissidents - a more, you know, moderate, tolerant, democratic church. And that was seen as very much a violation of the tradition set by his two most recent predecessors, John Paul I and Benedict. And, of course, he most famously made the church tolerant towards homosexuality. He utters those famous five words - who am I to judge? - when asked about gay people. And simply uttering those words really changed 2,000 years of tradition. The church was now tolerant of homosexuality, which had been previously banded a dire sin.
DETROW: We're talking - we don't know what direction the church is going to go, who is going to replace Pope Francis. Looking at all the things he tried to put in place, what do you think are the areas where it seems like he did make a lasting change, and what do you think are the areas that are most vulnerable if, yet again, you get a shift of direction in any leader?
SHENON: He did make a change towards the church's attitude toward gay people, towards divorced people. Divorced people were shown mercy in a way they hadn't been for centuries. There has been concern that he didn't put enough of that into writing, that he didn't change the fundamental teaching documents of the church in a way that would guarantee those reforms would last beyond his papacy. But perhaps the most important change he made in the Vatican is he overhauled the College of Cardinals - this group that will choose his successor. He's put in place 80% of the men who will now choose the next bishop of Rome, and it seems very - I see people talking about a very conservative pope to follow Francis, somebody who will reverse course. That really seems unlikely to me if only because 80% of the men who are in the college were given this enormous honor of being members of the college by Francis. It seems unlikely to me that they're going to want to step on Francis' legacy by reversing course with a pope who is very conservative.
DETROW: I want to get back to the decision that that group of men has to make in a moment. But one more question about Pope Francis and his legacy - especially as your book moves into the '80s and '90s and 2000s, as this came to light with investigative journalism and lawsuits, the sexual abuse crisis of the Catholic Church really hangs over the book. You write about the choices that John Paul II made or did not make, same with Benedict. When it comes to how Pope Francis addressed this critical crisis that so many people feel like the church hasn't done enough, what is your judgment of how he did?
SHENON: Well, he said the right things. He talked about trying to end this sort of grotesque scandal of priestly sex abuse. But the record shows that he never did nearly enough on that subject. There seemed to be several well-documented cases where he held off on investigations or scuttled investigations because churchmen were friends of his who had been accused of these crimes.
DETROW: So like you said, 135 members of the College of Cardinals will be voting on a new pope in the coming weeks. You're writing this history, and let's take the last three popes. You have two wildly charismatic people and one shy theologian, right? You have, in different combinations, two conservatives and a progressive; you have two older men and a man who was able to have this job for decades. Any sense that there is a consensus among the cardinals, among the people who are going to make this decision, about the kind of person needed for this job in the 21st century?
SHENON: Well, I think they'll be looking for a certain charisma. You know, the church is a fundraising operation. It's a publicity operation. It needs the goodwill of the people who follow it, especially young people. Many young people have fallen away from the church, and you'll want some figure who has real appeal to young people. I think the College of Cardinals will not be looking for a very young pope. They also won't be looking for a very old pope. They'll want somebody who will serve for at least a few years but not for a few decades. I think in recent times, the church has learned that there is a problem with a pope who stays on too long and becomes too ill and too aged. I think, too, that given the fact that 80% of these men were selected by Francis, I think they'll look for somebody in line with the legacy of Pope Francis.
DETROW: I will say, I've been giving this a lot of thought as somebody who's going to be doing NPR's coverage when the new pope emerges from that balcony. But there are so many cues that you can take right away about what kind of leader this person wants to be. One of the things you write about is the power of the name that a pope chooses, that - the stories previous popes have told with that immediate choice of, who are you going to be known as? What do you think people should be looking for or thinking about when this new person comes out and announces their papal name?
SHENON: The names over the centuries have had real significance, and Pope Francis has already predicted what the name of the next pope will be - the name of his successor. It's a little joke he's told repeatedly in recent years. It often baffles the people he tells it to. But he said that the next pope will be Pope John XXIV, in honor of Pope John XXIII, who was the architect of Vatican II - this much beloved figure at the time, this open-minded, tolerant figure at the time. And I think Pope Francis hopes that if the next pope is John XXIV, that will promote the legacy of not only Pope John, the good pope, but it will also promote the legacy of Pope Francis.
DETROW: I guess that Benedict XVII would tell a very different story as well. That is Philip Shenon, the author of the new book "Jesus Wept: Seven Popes And The Battle For The Soul Of The Catholic Church." Thanks so much for talking to us.
SHENON: Thanks, Scott.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONDER SONG, "WHAT YOU HEARD") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
