MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Getting a promotion at the Pentagon seems to be getting harder under Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. Over the last several months, Hegseth has personally blocked or delayed the promotions of several officers across the military branches, and a disproportionate number of those officers are women and people of color. The reasons why and how Congress is responding is something I discussed with NPR correspondents Kat Lonsdorf and Tom Bowman on our national security podcast Sources & Methods.
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KELLY: Tom, what's going on?
TOM BOWMAN: Well, first of all, 24 officers, their names have been withdrawn from the promotion list. Sixty percent of them are Black or female officers. And they're from all the services, Mary Louise - Navy captains, the Air Force and Army colonels and two Marine one-star generals. So I reached out to Congressman Pat Ryan. He's a New York Democrat who did two combat tours in Iraq, and he's pushing an amendment, and he got a full approval from the Armed Services Committee on a voice vote. And he's basically saying, listen, we want Secretary Hegseth to explain why each officer was withdrawn from these promotion lists. And it's highly unusual for a defense secretary to reach down at that level, the colonel level and the Navy captain level...
KELLY: Yeah.
BOWMAN: ...And withdraw people from the list...
KELLY: And as you go...
BOWMAN: ...Amidst no explanation for this.
KELLY: As you go through their bios, Tom, is - are there red flags? Is there anything you can see that might be the reason?
BOWMAN: Well, it's funny you mentioned that 'cause I have the names of six of them.
KELLY: OK.
BOWMAN: Six of these officers. And get this, the Hill is trying to get the names of the other 18 officers. They didn't even know who these officers are.
KELLY: OK, so they don't - there's not, like, a list out there where you can...
BOWMAN: Correct.
KELLY: OK.
BOWMAN: Right.
KELLY: Got it.
BOWMAN: So I'm looking at one of these officers. They've commanded at various levels, worked in legislative affairs in Capitol Hill. Another one, Iraq time, distinguished graduate, master's degree, worked with the joint chiefs of staff. And I'm looking at some more here. Again, Iraq time...
KELLY: OK, so...
BOWMAN: ...Distinguished graduate.
KELLY: ...Distinguished combat veterans?
BOWMAN: Right. And there's no indication here - and one more. There's a officer whose brother is also an officer in the military. So everyone's scratching their heads. And I talked to a friend of one of these officers, right? And this friend told me - he said this officer is dumbfounded. He said, I've done 30 years in the military. You know, no blemish on my record. I don't know why my name was withdrawn from the list, right?
KAT LONSDORF: And we should say, you know, Mary Louise, Tom and I have been looking into this. In order to be blocked or delayed a promotion, which is pretty uncommon, there has to be a real reason, like an egregious, you know, something you've done. You're under investigation, that kind of thing. And as far as we can tell, none of these people who have been recently blocked or delayed promotion...
BOWMAN: No. No, that's absolutely...
LONSDORF: ...Have any kind of investigation into them.
BOWMAN: That's absolutely right.
KELLY: So we said lawmakers are asking questions about this. I know y'all are asking questions about this. What does the Pentagon say when you say why are these people not being promoted?
BOWMAN: Well, back in March when they pulled some of these officers from the list, I reached out to Sean Parnell. He's the Pentagon spokesman. And he said, quote, "Under Secretary Hegseth, military promotions are given to those who have earned them. Meritocracy, which reigns in this department, is apolitical and unbiased." But here's the thing we know about Secretary Hegseth. He has questioned officers in the past. Did this person get his job because of his race? Did this female officer get it because of her gender? We're done with this DEI thing.
And I asked Congressman Ryan. I said, you know, what do you think's going on here? And he said, I think there are layered reasons for all of this. He said part of it is Hegseth wants total loyalty, and anyone questioning him, like - he said anyone with a sliver of independence gets axed. And he said...
LONSDORF: Yeah.
BOWMAN: ...Clearly, if you look at the stats, there's a racial and gender element here as well.
KELLY: Is there any appeals process here, or can Pete Hegseth - or any defense secretary, for that matter - block people's promotions for whatever reason they want? Do they have to explain it?
BOWMAN: Well, again, as Kat was saying, you can pull someone off the list if there's an active investigation, if there's clear element of wrongdoing. But yeah, he can do it. Also, as we know, the officers serve at the pleasure of the president.
LONSDORF: Right.
BOWMAN: Right? So Hegseth or anyone can go to the president and say, hey, this guy's got to go.
KELLY: I guess, just to zoom out a little bit, this obviously matters hugely to the people in question. Do we know, is there a way to measure what effect it may or may not be having on morale, on operational readiness or performance?
BOWMAN: There's no question it's having an effect on morale. People I talk with who are in the military or in the retired community say there's an element of fear now at the Pentagon. You don't want to raise your head, raise your hand, say anything against the policy or even question it. So I think, clearly, it's going to have - it has a problem with morale. And also, Congressman Ryan said this could have an effect on recruiting as well.
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KELLY: That was NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. You also heard correspondent Kat Lonsdorf. We were talking on NPR's weekly national security podcast Sources & Methods. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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