ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
President Trump signed a number of new executive orders last night aimed at the U.S. military. Some are describing the orders as part of a campaign to reshape the military itself. But with an institution as vast as the Pentagon, it's not clear what the extent of the changes will be. Let's hear more from NPR's Selena Simmons-Duffin, who covers health policy, and NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Good to have you both in the studio.
TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hello.
SELENA SIMMONS-DUFFIN, BYLINE: Hi.
SHAPIRO: To start with you, Selena, one of these executive orders focuses on service members who are transgender. What does it say?
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Well, it says that it's a revival of the trans military ban that started back in 2017. It's no surprise that Trump signed this order. He talked about it a lot on the campaign trail. This executive order is light on details right now in terms of who will be affected and how it will all play out, but it appears to be more sweeping than the trans military ban in the first Trump administration.
SHAPIRO: And - well, how so? What does it say?
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Well, that original policy, what it did is it said, you could not start transitioning or enlist if you were transgender, but service members who were already receiving gender-affirming care, like hormones, could carry on. This new order looks like it will apply to those current service members too, as in, people might be kicked out even if they've served honorably for years and are close to being eligible for their pension. Patricia King is a transgender Army veteran who's connected to a lot of trans people who are actively serving.
PATRICIA KING: There are questions about who will be allowed to serve, for how long. If you're a trans person who is allowed to stay, will you be allowed to be promoted? There's a lot of questions, and those unknowns create fear.
BOWMAN: And, Ari, I'm sure a lot of people will wonder how many trans people are in the military. Advocates say about 15,000. I asked a Pentagon official, you know, does that sound right? He said we only know who is transgender if they got some sort of medical treatment for gender-affirming care - that would be in their records - and that number is around 2,000.
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: And, Ari, by the way, a striking thing to note is that last time, if you wanted to stay in the military, you needed a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to be grandfathered in. Now it seems like that diagnosis could be used against people to kick them out.
SHAPIRO: Tom, these executive actions also took aim at diversity programs. What does that order?
BOWMAN: Well, the president already got rid of DEI training, which is minimal. Just last month, the Army secretary, Christine Wormuth, said on NPR that in basic training, the Army spends 95 hours on rifle marksmanship and 1 hour on equal-opportunity training. Now, for many years, the Pentagon has said the military must look like America, and they have tried to bring more women and African Americans into the services at all levels. But officials and lawmakers insist there are no quotas.
So that would be a question for Secretary Hegseth - tell us where the quotas or preferential treatments are. Hegseth also said yesterday he would keep joint chiefs chairman, General C.Q. Brown, although just a couple of months ago, Ari, he said Brown should be fired for being involved with DEI. So another question for Hegseth is, well, who do you believe got a senior job because of diversity and not merit, and would you fire them?
SHAPIRO: Another one of these orders is about troops who were let go over their refusal to be vaccinated during their pandemic. Trump mentioned this during his inaugural address.
BOWMAN: That's right. The Defense Authorization Act back in 2023 called for bringing back the 8,000 the Pentagon says were kicked out for not taking the COVID vaccine. Nearly all were junior service members with around two years of duty. Just about 80 came back. Is it possible some of the others could come back under this new executive order? Sure. But it seems like the numbers will be very, very small.
SHAPIRO: Well, Selena, back to you on the question of court challenges. With the first transgender military ban, there was a long legal battle. Is that likely to happen again?
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Yes, indeed. It already started. A lawsuit challenging the transgender ban was filed just hours after the order was signed. It was brought by six currently-serving trans service members and two trans people in the process of joining the military. Other groups say they're preparing more lawsuits. So King, the Army veteran I spoke with, pointed out that regardless of the details of the policy and the legal challenges, this order could invite harassment for transgender troops in day-to-day life. So they're really feeling nervous right now.
SHAPIRO: That is NPR's Selena Simmons-Duffin and Tom Bowman. Thank you both.
BOWMAN: You're welcome.
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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