SARAH MCCAMMON, HOST:
Millions have watched the harrowing videos of federal immigration agents shooting and killing protester Alex Pretti in Minneapolis yesterday. The agents approached Pretti and another person on a street. They pepper sprayed and tackled him to the ground as he struggled. Federal officials say Pretti had a handgun on his person, but there's been no evidence that NPR has verified that he brandished the weapon, and he was on the ground when an immigration agent shot him. This is the second fatal shooting carried out by immigration agents in the Twin Cities in recent weeks, and that has raised questions about the role of immigration agents. We'll put some of those questions to Chuck Wexler. He's the executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum and a police reform expert. Welcome.
CHUCK WEXLER: Nice to be with you.
MCCAMMON: How do you train officers or how do you recommend that officers be trained to deescalate in situations where they may be worried about their safety?
WEXLER: I mean, I think this is a very important question because in Minneapolis they've had three agent-involved shootings in the last three weeks. If a police chief had three officer-involved shootings in three weeks, I can tell you they would be - No. 1, they'd say what are we learning from these situations? How can we handle these differently? It's very important, for example, that departments have strong policies and tactics - very important. In all of these situations in Minneapolis, tactics have played a role.
MCCAMMON: How do you assess ICE's policies and tactics when it comes to these kinds of situations?
WEXLER: Well, I mean, this is a really good question because this is an urban environment. This is different than most of the environments that ICE and Border Patrol face. And in an urban environment, you have - you know, you have to know the community. You have to be able to work with the community. You know, American police have faced the daunting challenge of officer-involved shootings over the last 10 years. And one of the things they've learned is sometimes you have to slow things down, use time and distance and communicate. There's very little communication in that video that you see.
And sometimes you have to take a tactical pause, step back. If I was looking at this from the ICE perspective, I'd say, look, we've had three agents-involved shootings in the last three weeks. They all involve trying to make some kind of arrest. What can we do? What can we learn from these incidents? This is ultimately about the sanctity of human life. Two people have died. And, you know, what could happen, too - the other side of this is you're endangering ICE agents, too. People will look at that and say, well, we need to figure out a way to ratchet down the tension. What do both sides need to do? And I think it starts with, you know, a tactical pause, stepping back and trying to assess tactics, deescalation.
MCCAMMON: I have to ask. I mean, as you know, this is the third ICE-involved shooting in several weeks, the second fatal shooting. Is this a matter of a need for better training, or is this about the tone that's coming from the administration?
WEXLER: Look, what would it take for both sides to ratchet it down? But I think that starts, honestly, with ICE sort of saying look, let's step back, and let's look at how we're doing these kind of cases. How can we do them differently? And if this was a local police department, they would be reaching out to the community. They would get the community involved. They would say, we need you. We need to build trust. But when you have federal agents coming into a community, they can sometimes come off as an occupying army. And in American policing, that's not what we've learned. We know, you know, communication, trust, all of those things are essential.
MCCAMMON: I want to talk about the optics we're seeing, some of these images coming from Minneapolis, the way that federal ICE agents are presenting themselves. They're wearing masks. They're wearing these nondescript colors, almost a camouflage look. Whereas you see images of local Minneapolis police in their uniforms, sometimes wearing yellow safety vests. What is the significance of the way that law enforcement officials dress? And what kind of a message does it send to the public about what they're trying to achieve?
WEXLER: I mean, that's a good point. American police have recognized it's important for them to have their name, their ID, to be visible, to communicate. American police wear body-worn cameras. All of these efforts have been to try to regain trust and legitimacy with the community. I think when you go into these situations masked, it creates this image - somehow, whatever they're doing is not legitimate. And look, they have a difficult job. I don't envy ICE agents. I think, though, when you put them in these positions and you put masks on their face, and they're not communicating, they have no relationship with the community, it really becomes almost, you know, a recipe for disaster.
MCCAMMON: That was Chuck Wexler. He's the executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum. Thanks so much.
WEXLER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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