MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Sitting across from Speaker Emerita of the House, Nancy Pelosi - Madam Speaker, lovely to see you. Thanks for stopping by.
NANCY PELOSI: My pleasure. Thank you. Nice to be here.
KELLY: You once said that you tell women, and I quote, "nobody ever gives away power. If you want to achieve that, you go for it. But when you get it, you must use it."
PELOSI: Yes.
KELLY: You said that to The Post - The Washington Post - in 2020. It was your second round as speaker of the house. And I begin there because the reason you and I are sitting across from each other today is you have a new book out called "The Art Of Power." Nobody starts with power, including even you. You came to Congress in your late 40s, and then you decided pretty quickly that the way to do what you had come to do was you needed to get a position of leadership. I want you to take us to the moment - 2001, you have decided to throw your hat in the ring for Democratic whip, and all the men in the room looked at each other and said, who said she could run? Would you briefly tell us what happened?
PELOSI: Well, let me, if I just may - first of all...
KELLY: Please.
PELOSI: ...Lovely to be here, love NPR. This book is not a memoir. It is just about four particular things, whether it's the Iraq War, the TARP, the financial crisis, China and, again, issues that relate to places where I was in the room where it happened.
KELLY: Well, the theme seems to be how you wielded power as a woman who - the first woman to wield the gavel you have held all those years.
PELOSI: Yeah, but to put it in perspective, I had never intended to run for office. I was a volunteer in politics. I loved doing that. I loved promoting other candidates, the causes of the Democratic Party. And then people encouraged me to run. And I thought, well, I never expressed an interest. I'm not particularly ambitious in that regard. However, they said, you love the issues. You should go. And I did.
And then people said to me, you should run for leadership. I said, well, I'm here for the issues. I love what I'm doing. But then as it got on with their urging, I just really got tired of losing. We lost in '94, '96, '98. 2000 came around, and I said, I think I know how to win these elections. I had been...
KELLY: I guess what I'm pushing on is, the way you recount it in the book, this was not widely welcomed by...
PELOSI: No, no (laughter).
KELLY: ...The men who had held power.
PELOSI: Yeah.
KELLY: And I'm curious what gave you the confidence to say, no, you get in line. We've been standing in line for 200 years.
PELOSI: Yeah.
KELLY: It's our turn.
PELOSI: Well, it is interesting that in this - not that long ago, they were saying, who said she could run? And then they were saying, well, why don't the women just make a list of the things they want to do and give it to us, and we'll get those things done. Poor babies. I mean, it was like...
KELLY: Oh, so they were helpful if you just gave them the list.
PELOSI: The list - they would do it.
KELLY: They would sort it for you. Right.
PELOSI: And we're like, well, you know. But I said to the people then, I don't want you voting for me because I'm a woman, and I don't want you voting against me because I'm a woman. But I think that I know how to win for a reason - for the children. That's the only reason I left home the first time.
KELLY: Yeah. Speaking of children, you have five. And I do want to throw you a question about your mom. Speaking of women and power, your mom, how did she shape your understanding of what a woman could do, how she could wield power in a room?
PELOSI: Well, my mother - I think if she had been another generation or two, God knows what she would have done. But she, as other women of her generation, were more confined. My father was the politician. Well, he was the elected official...
KELLY: He was the long-time mayor of Baltimore...
PELOSI: ...Both politicians.
KELLY: ...Member of Congress.
PELOSI: She was but a mom, seven kids. And I was the only girl, the youngest and the only girl. She was quite remarkable. And I was born into a family that was deeply Catholic first and foremost. We separate church and state, but the way we were raised, we had a responsibility for goodness to other people. So that was the value system. But I had never had any intention of running for public office. None.
KELLY: True that your parents wanted you to be not speaker of the house, but a nun?
PELOSI: My mother. Not my father necessarily. He didn't talk about that. But my mother, she wanted me to be a nun. She thought that would be just perfect.
KELLY: Did you ever think about it?
PELOSI: No.
KELLY: No.
PELOSI: You know, it was lovely. And I loved the nuns, and I owe them a great deal. And they say sometimes, it's never too late. But it (laughter) probably is by now. But it is - that was just a manifestation of her faith and her protection.
KELLY: Before we move on from talking power and how to wield the power that you have...
PELOSI: Yeah.
KELLY: ...I do need to ask about recent events that are outside the scope of this book, including the moment last month when you went on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" and said this.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "MORNING JOE")
PELOSI: It's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. We're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short.
KELLY: Nancy Pelosi, he had made that decision. He'd just come out and told us, I'm in. I'm running, case closed. Your comments reopened the whole kettle of worms. Why'd you do it?
PELOSI: Well, let me just say that it - I have the highest regard for Joe Biden. He is one of the great - most consequential presidents of our time and certainly in our American history. He's a...
KELLY: And a personal friend.
PELOSI: Well, I love him. I've loved him for over 40 years, he and his family. And his legacy is very important for our country. And his legacy is one we share because having the majority for part of the time of his presidency. So it wasn't a question of his decide (ph). It was a question of their deciding what kind of campaign would go forward. One of the reasons I ran for Congress this time was to make sure we won the House back and to make sure that Donald Trump never set foot in the White House again.
KELLY: But let me circle you back to this moment that I'm pushing you on.
PELOSI: Yeah.
KELLY: Why go on "Morning Joe," which he's known to watch, and reopen that door?
PELOSI: Well, I went on "Morning Joe" that day because it was - that's a question they asked, but it wasn't why I was there. I was there because it was the NATO summit.
KELLY: But you knew they would ask.
PELOSI: I didn't know that there'd be time. You know, you never know if there's going to be enough time. We were there to talk about what Russia was doing in Ukraine. My concern was not about whether he would run or not, but whether they would have the campaign that was necessary.
KELLY: That was ready.
PELOSI: And we wanted more visibility of him and the rest of it. It was not a question at that time of whether he would run or not. It was a question of whether they would have the campaign that was necessary to win.
KELLY: To win.
PELOSI: Because I think that the biggest danger to our country is that what's his name would be reelected president of the United States. That was my mission.
KELLY: What's his name being Donald Trump. Let me ask this question in a slightly different way. You never called on Joe Biden to drop out. I know. I have talked to no one in this town in Washington who doesn't believe your fingerprints were on that decision and that you were the only one with the clout to pull it off. Are those people wrong?
PELOSI: It is wrong. I'll tell you what I did not do. I did not call one person. I read in the press that I was burning up the phone lines. And I didn't call one person. People called me. Some of them I received their call. Some of them I didn't even have even time to. I never said, put Michael Donilon on the phone. Never.
KELLY: Have you spoken with President Biden since his decision to pull out?
PELOSI: No. No. Well, not since his public decision. That's a week and a half ago. No, I haven't.
KELLY: Speaker Emerita of the House, Nancy Pelosi. More of our conversation tomorrow, when I ask about one of the biggest challenges of her political career - navigating the financial crisis of 2008. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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