SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Director Barry Jenkins is famous for indie hits like "Moonlight" and "If Beale Street Could Talk." Now he's directing the new Disney movie "Mufasa: The Lion King." If that gives you a bit of whiplash, he's with you. Jenkins originally rejected the idea of taking on the big blockbuster. But then he says he saw an opportunity to complicate the themes of the original movie.
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BARRY JENKINS: You have this great starting point with audiences anywhere, especially with these built-in notions of good and evil. And we get to sort of add what I think is all these really amazing layers of complexity. You know, 2024 is a much more complex world than 1994 was. And so I relish the opportunity to unpack what I think are some really amazing and knotty issues.
DETROW: Jenkins talked to NPR's Rachel Martin on Wild Card, where famous guests answer questions about their lives drawn from a deck of cards. And just a warning, there is some bleeped profanity in this conversation.
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RACHEL MARTIN: One, two or three.
JENKINS: Two.
MARTIN: Two, right in the middle - where would you go to feel safe as a kid?
JENKINS: You know, I grew up - you know, I actually know the answer to this. I grew up very poor in the world that you see dramatized in "Moonlight," and I lived in this housing project.
MARTIN: This is in Miami, we should say.
JENKINS: This is in Miami, exactly. And in the middle of this complex, there was an old, like, laundromat. But it had this flat roof, and there was this massive tree above it. And I remember as a child, if things were too heavy or there was too much going on, I would go, and I would find a way using the window - and this place is dilapidated, like, in disrepute. Like, it's not being used. I would climb up in the window to get onto the roof, and then I would jump onto the tree. And I would squirrel up into the very top of this tree, like, so high that if someone was walking by, they would never know someone was up there. And I would just go up into this tree, and I would just sort of just, like, listen to the sounds of the day. I would kind of just clear my head. And I think I would just stay up there until I felt like I was ready to sort of reenter the world or reenter my life. I haven't thought of it in a very, very long time...
MARTIN: Wow.
JENKINS: ...Because the idea of me climbing trees is crazy.
MARTIN: (Laughter) Not a thing you do now.
JENKINS: Yeah, that's what I would do. And it's interesting - later in life, I would sometimes go on these long walks as a teenager, and I would find these empty houses that had fruit trees in the backyard. So, you know, it's Florida. It's Miami...
MARTIN: Yeah.
JENKINS: ...Grapefruit trees, avocado trees, and I guess I climbed trees a lot. I would climb trees.
MARTIN: It sounds like it was, yeah, on the regular.
JENKINS: I would climb trees to go feel safe.
MARTIN: And to get perspective, probably. I mean, there's something about getting high above the din of life and the hard things.
JENKINS: Yeah, it's weird. There's a version of it that maybe as you're trying to avoid all these different things. But I think solitude can be very fortifying as well - and to sort of recenter yourself before you reenter the rigors, the demands of everyday life, especially that life 'cause it was a lot for a child to process.
MARTIN: OK, three more cards - one, two or three.
JENKINS: I will go with three this time. Let's go with three.
MARTIN: Three - what is something you still feel you need to prove to the people you meet?
JENKINS: What is - you know - because of where I came from and what I do, that there's just always this version of me that feels like I'm not enough, you know, that I constantly have to prove - to reaffirm my ability, my value, my merits. The flip side is, you know, it keeps me very driven. I am trying to put my full self. I am trying to just be unimpeachably affirmative of value...
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah.
JENKINS: ...Of merit, just of merit. And I think it's something that will always be with me, unfortunately, 'cause I don't think it's something that adds value.
MARTIN: You haven't experienced it abating over time. It's still...
JENKINS: No.
MARTIN: ...Pretty constant.
JENKINS: No, I have not. I think when you go - you know, I made this film "If Beale Street Could Talk," which is an adaptation of James Baldwin. And there's this great quote that we put into the movie. It's taken directly from the book - the children have been told that they weren't worth [expletive] and everything around them proved it.
MARTIN: Yeah.
JENKINS: On one hand, a very lovely, beautiful book, but also a very angry - justifiably angry book, and something of that line just stays in the back of my head. And for some reason, I feel like I'll always be working in the opposite direction to disprove it...
MARTIN: Yeah.
JENKINS: ...You know, that I'm not worth [expletive]. So that's it. Again, I told you I'm going to give you honest answers, Rachel - Rachel Martin.
MARTIN: OK, I appreciate your honesty. Three more - one, two or three?
JENKINS: Let's go two.
MARTIN: Do you think there's order in the universe, or is it all chaos?
JENKINS: I think it's all chaos.
MARTIN: Oh.
JENKINS: I really do. I have to. I have to believe that.
MARTIN: Whoa, people usually give the complete opposite answer, that there is order because they have to believe that because the alternative is so unsettling.
JENKINS: The alternative is unsettling, but there's also something quite beautiful about it as well. I do believe that the universe is chaos, and our role in it, which is, I think the beauty and the agony of life, is to make sense of it and to try to create order, but to do it ethically, to do it in a way that's spiritually balanced. I truly and fully believe that because I think the history of me, you know, I'm the descendant of African slaves. What order...
MARTIN: Yeah.
JENKINS: ...Gave birth to that path?
MARTIN: Yeah.
JENKINS: That certainly came out of complete chaos and horror. But I think we can take that chaos and create something, you know, quite profound. I really do. I mean, Rachel Martin, it is December 2024. You're going to tell me the last five years on this planet...
MARTIN: (Laughter).
JENKINS: ...You know, have been orderly? They have been beyond, chaotic. I mean, beyond. And when we go out and create work, when you do these interviews, when I create these films, I do think we're all trying to have conversations, dialogue to make sense...
MARTIN: Yeah.
JENKINS: ...You know, of all this chaos, to show that we're all navigating it in our own ways, and we're just doing the best we can.
MARTIN: Barry Jenkins, it was a thrill to talk with you. I'm so excited for your new movie, "Mufasa: The Lion King."
JENKINS: Thank you.
MARTIN: I'm just so happy for you.
JENKINS: Thank you very much.
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DETROW: Follow NPR's Wild Card podcast to hear a longer version of that conversation. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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