LEILA FADEL, HOST:
More than a dozen federal agencies are starting this week without their inspectors general, including at the Department of Defense, State, Health and Human Services - the list goes on. President Trump fired them late Friday. Inspectors general are independent watchdogs who work within agencies to call out waste, fraud and abuse of power. Joining me to discuss this news is Glenn Fine. He was the Justice Department's inspector general for more than a decade, and more recently, he was acting inspector general at the Pentagon during Trump's first term. Good morning, Glenn. Thanks for being on the program.
GLENN FINE: Thanks for having me.
FADEL: So is this move legal?
FINE: Well, it didn't follow the Inspector General Act, which requires the president, if he wants to remove an inspector general, which he's allowed to do, but he must give Congress 30 days notice before the removal, and the substantive rationale with detailed and case-specific reasons for each removal. That's under the Inspector General Act. It was passed in a bipartisan amendment in 2022. And that didn't happen when these inspectors general were told they were being removed, apparently by an email from somebody in the office of presidential personnel, and effective immediately. So it did not adhere to the Inspector General Act requirements.
FADEL: Now, the legality is also something Republican Senator Chuck Grassley and the Council of Inspectors General on Integrity and Efficiency are both questioning. But the president said this is a very common thing to do. Is it a very common thing to do?
FINE: It is not a very common thing to do, particularly this level of mass firings. The Inspector General Act was passed in 1978, as a part of good government reform. And in the first transition after that, President Reagan removed all the IGs, but there was a human cry in Congress who vociferously protested because they're supposed to be nonpartisan and remained when administrations changed. And President Reagan hired back many of those IGs. And since then, no, there have not been mass removals like that. There are some removals, occasionally. President Obama removed one. President Biden removed one. President Trump in his first administration removed several, but it's not been like this where 17 or more inspectors general were removed en mass at the beginning of an administration without substantive reasons given.
FADEL: Towards the end of Trump's first term, as you mentioned, he dismissed a few inspectors general, including you. What happened in your case?
FINE: Well, I was the acting inspector general for the Department of Defense for 4 1/2 years. I had been also the inspector general of the Department of Justice for 11 years under both Republican and Democratic administrations. Then the pandemic hit in 2020, and COVID relief funds were given out, and there was a committee of IGs created to oversee the use of those funds. I was selected to be the chair of that committee, and then I was removed by President Trump within a few days of that. It wasn't illegal. He was allowed to do that, and that ended my career as the acting inspector general of the Department of Defense.
FADEL: Trump said he would install new inspectors general. And he also was asked if he would install loyalists in these positions, and he said he didn't know anyone who would do that, saying he wouldn't do that. What happens to oversight at these agencies in the meantime?
FINE: Well, IGs are supposed to be nonpartisan. They're to be selected according to the IG Act without regard to their political affiliation. And their effectiveness depends on them being nonpolitical. And so it is important that they be viewed as not tied to one party or another or hired or fired like any other political appointees in administrations. Otherwise, their credibility, independence and effectiveness and impact is diminished. So I would hope that he would hire people who have experience in investigations or auditing that are not political in any way, that are not tied to one political party and have the credibility and independence and effectiveness to perform this critically important oversight role, which provides a check and balance in each government agency and is critically needed.
FADEL: Glenn Fine, former inspector general and author of the book "Watchdogs: Inspectors General And The Battle For Honest And Accountable Government." Thank you for your time.
FINE: Thank you very much for having me.
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