SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
For the past three years, the U.S. has been Ukraine's leading supporter in its war with Russia. But with a series of stunning moves, President Trump is now sounding more aligned with Russia than with Ukraine. To break this down we are joined by NPR's Greg Myre in Washington and Joanna Kakissis in Kyiv. Hey to both of you.
JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Hello.
GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Hi, Scott.
DETROW: Greg, I want to start with you. Trump is publicly attacking Ukraine's president. Why? Why is he doing this?
MYRE: Well, Scott, Trump has been critical of Ukraine and Zelenskyy dating back to his first term, but we've never seen language this harsh. Writing on social media, Trump said, quote, "a dictator without elections, Zelenskyy better move fast, or he's not going to have a country left."
So in the past week, Trump has also reached out to Russia, which had been isolated under the Biden administration. Trump called Russian leader Vladimir Putin, and senior Trump aides met with their Russian counterparts in Saudi Arabia without Ukraine present. And this all seems to be part of Trump's very aggressive campaign for a ceasefire, and he's going about it by putting very intense public pressure on Ukraine and Zelenskyy, who are in a vulnerable position on the battlefield.
DETROW: Joanna, how are people in Ukraine responding? Specifically, how is Zelenskyy responding?
KAKISSIS: So Zelenskyy has remained calm, and he's tried to be diplomatic, and he seemed concerned, not angry, when he said yesterday that President Trump seems to live in a Russian-created space of disinformation. Trump is repeating Kremlin talking points. He's blaming Ukraine for the war, even as Russia continues to attack the country every night, and he's claiming Zelenskyy is an illegitimate president.
And now Ukrainians are - you know, they very much want this war to end, but they've been watching the Trump administration's actions with disbelief. We spoke to several Ukrainians who are outraged by Trump's comments. Olena Tokovenko - she's a 47-year-old lawyer. She said Trump is acting like he owns Ukraine.
OLENA TOKOVENKO: (Through interpreter) Maybe Trump can just tell us who to elect and maybe even offer his own candidate. Maybe, though, we should not ask Trump, but Putin, what to do. This would cut out a middleman - right? - because this is Russia's policy coming through Trump.
KAKISSIS: The feeling that the White House is aligned with Russia is so shocking to Ukrainians because they have staked their very survival as a country on Western-style democracy and liberty, which they believed the U.S. was a beacon of.
DETROW: So Trump is attacking Zelenskyy, echoing Kremlin talking points. Zelenskyy is responding. But, Joanna, at the same time, Trump's envoy for Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, is in Kyiv. How is he being received?
KAKISSIS: Well, Scott, he's here this week, but it's really not clear how much authority he has. And this point seemed to be driven home today when we went to the presidential palace for another press conference, this time with Kellogg and Zelenskyy. But while we were waiting to sit down for this press conference, Zelenskyy's spokesman said it would not happen at the request of the American side.
DETROW: OK. So, Greg, what is likely to happen with U.S. military support for Ukraine? It's billions and billions of dollars.
MYRE: So for the moment, it continues. This is part of a big package approved last year by the Biden administration. It's still working its way through the pipeline, but it is winding down, and Trump is giving no indication that he'll seek more. In fact, just the opposite - he says Zelenskyy's great skill has been to get the U.S. to send him money, and suggesting that there won't be more going to Ukraine.
Now, the Europeans are helping with their own military assistance, but without American aid, the Ukrainians will be stretched very thin. For example, Ukraine needs regular resupplies of air defense missiles to shoot down these daily and nightly Russian airstrikes.
DETROW: Question for both of you - Trump really seems to be in a hurry here to get ceasefire negotiations started. What do the various parties - and we're talking Trump in America, Ukraine and Russia - what do they want from these talks? Greg, let me start with you.
MYRE: Yeah. I spoke with Andrew Weiss at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington. He says Trump wants this ceasefire but doesn't seem particularly interested in the details. He said, Russia is also interested in a ceasefire but has very expansive and ambitious aims.
ANDREW WEISS: The Russians are pressing for a big ceasefire, and that ceasefire would include caps on the size of Ukraine's military, it would impose strict limits on Western cooperation with Ukraine, and it would close the door to Ukraine's membership in NATO.
DETROW: Joanna, what about Ukraine?
KAKISSIS: So, Scott, Ukraine wants very strong security guarantees to protect itself from Russia to avoid more invasions in the future, and Zelenskyy says he will not give up Ukraine's push for NATO membership or its wish to get back territory occupied by Russia. And Ukrainians - they also want Russia to be held accountable for war crimes. But with the Trump administration, all this is up in the air.
DETROW: That is NPR's Joanna Kakissis in Kyiv, as well as NPR's Greg Myre talking to us from Washington. Thanks to both of you.
KAKISSIS: You're welcome.
MYRE: Thanks, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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