LEILA FADEL, HOST:
A federal judge wants the Justice Department to explain its actions in deportations that took place over the weekend.
A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Yeah, the judge asked for a sworn declaration from the DOJ by noon today detailing how planes carrying alleged Venezuelan gang members were flown from the U.S. to El Salvador despite a judge's orders to turn the planes around. A hearing yesterday saw a heated debate unfold about when exactly the orders were issued and whether they had to be in writing to restrain government action. The incident is bringing the administration closer to a constitutional face off.
FADEL: NPR's Franco Ordoñez is here with more about how President Trump is testing his executive powers. Good morning, Franco.
FRANCO ORDOÑEZ, BYLINE: Good morning, Leila.
FADEL: So this story really blew up over the weekend. What's the controversy here?
ORDOÑEZ: Well, I mean, the controversy is whether the U.S. government defied a legal court order,
FADEL: Right.
ORDOÑEZ: Which would be a potential breakdown between the executive branch and the judicial branch. And many legal experts say this would create a major constitutional crisis. Now, the White House says they did not ignore the court, and they're painting this as a counterterrorism operation. They say most of the migrants on the plane were members of a Venezuelan gang known as Tren de Aragua. Others were from the Salvadoran gang MS-13. But really, as you noted, part of this debate is over the timing of the order. The White House says the written order was issued after the flights had taken off. But earlier, the judge did give a verbal order.
FADEL: OK, so before we talk about the legal issues, how does the White House view the politics of this issue?
ORDOÑEZ: I mean, politically, they see this as a winning issue. I mean, it's one Trump campaigned on, and they're claiming this operation is him carrying out that promise. I mean, they feel that most Americans care more that violent gang members are being removed from the country. I mean, they even made light of the controversy yesterday and over the weekend, reposting a note by the Salvadoran president who wrote online, quote, "oopsie... too late" after the judge called back the plane. And they're also posting on social media video of tattooed migrants with their hands chained boarding planes to different kinds of music.
FADEL: So making light of this really important question of whether or not the Trump administration defied the court order. What did the Trump administration say about that?
ORDOÑEZ: Well, they say they did not. And I did speak with Justin Levitt, a law professor at Loyola Marymount University who served in the Biden White House. He said it's clear the Trump administration is attacking the judicial branch in alarming ways, but he said it was not clear whether the administration was actually violating those orders yet.
JUSTIN LEVITT: So what I see them doing so far is playing footsie with the notion of defying a court order rather than actually defying a court order. They're getting cute. They're getting up to the line.
ORDOÑEZ: You know, he adds that they talk tough on TV and press briefings. Vice President Vance has attacked judges, saying they're not allowed to control executive branch. Just yesterday, the border czar, Tom Homan, said on Fox he didn't care what judges think. But so far, Levitt says the Trump administration has complied with the orders, albeit reluctantly.
FADEL: And how does this test of Trump's power fit with other moves the administration is making?
ORDOÑEZ: I mean, this is a case that should not be looked at in a vacuum. The question at hand is not whether or not these people are dangerous and should be in the country but the process of their removal. Is it legal? And specifically, did the administration knowingly ignore this order? This is just another example, though, of how the White House is working to stretch its powers. And we have seen this with the legislative branch, and we're now seeing it in the judicial branch.
FADEL: Thanks, Franco.
ORDOÑEZ: Thank you.
FADEL: That's White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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